At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion relating to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in config files? b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there is no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better. c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion relating to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in config files? b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there is no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better. c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best. // Good Bye
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion relating
to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there is
no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's account.
Dave
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:13:01AM +0200, Jan Barger wrote:
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best. // Good Bye
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion relating
to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there is
no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
On 27-03-2018, at 3:13 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's account.
Perhaps more worrying than rudeness is the "er, what?" aspect. I have no idea to what the poster refers. Weird.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: LCD: Launch Cartridge Disk
timrowledge wrote
I have no idea to what the poster refers.
True, but it did have a mysterious haiku-like allure ha ha
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:13 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's account.
Let's not be too precious. I'm happy to debate him on this and it's important.
Dave
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:13:01AM +0200, Jan Barger wrote:
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best. // Good Bye
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion
relating
to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us
that
they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and
there is
no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the
autobuild
Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get
some
better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems
building
thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple
oversight?
And why is the package naming of the form
squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz
but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus
looking
like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Changing the subject line in case follow up discussion is needed.
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:02:25PM -0700, Eliot Miranda wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:13 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's account.
Let's not be too precious. I'm happy to debate him on this and it's important.
I put a "moderate" flag on a list poster who had sent what I perceived to be a personal attack with abusive language and no meaningful factual content. I did this not only because the post was inappropriate, but also because abusive trolling can be harmful and distracting, and I thought it better to hit the pause pause button sooner rather than later.
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people who like to do good work, and who like to help others do the same. I have quietly served as the list admin, and I have never had to deal with any problem more serious than an accidentally oversized PNG attachment. We should all be proud of that.
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email. But unless the members of this list say otherwise, I will leave them blocked.
Dave
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
Sorry for incident, put Pharo which i downloaded crashed, and the same with my old image and new vm and new 64 bit. Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
Thanks, and sorry once more for this incident.
2018-03-28 3:36 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com:
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
I need 24/7/365 stable vm and pharo for my biznis in financial services - and it seems i need to use older versions
http://www,4exrate.com http://www.facebook.com/4exrate
2018-03-28 5:41 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Sorry for incident, put Pharo which i downloaded crashed, and the same with my old image and new vm and new 64 bit. Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
Thanks, and sorry once more for this incident.
2018-03-28 3:36 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com:
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Cincom Smalltalk™ Helps JP Morgan Consistently Beat Their Competition( http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-services/jpmorgan/ )
2018-03-28 5:50 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
I need 24/7/365 stable vm and pharo for my biznis in financial services - and it seems i need to use older versions
http://www,4exrate.com http://www.facebook.com/4exrate
2018-03-28 5:41 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Sorry for incident, put Pharo which i downloaded crashed, and the same with my old image and new vm and new 64 bit. Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
Thanks, and sorry once more for this incident.
2018-03-28 3:36 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com:
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
On 28 March 2018 at 11:41, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for incident, put Pharo which i downloaded crashed, and the same with my old image and new vm and new 64 bit.
Which links did you download? Some more information might allow some more constructive response.
Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
Eliot is not directly responsible for Pharo. There are a much broader range of candidates to aim your bow at.
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
I really can't see how Eliot's intent can be questioned. That sort of personal attack detracts from your credibility.
Thanks, and sorry once more for this incident.
accepted, and monitoring.
regards -ben
2018-03-28 3:36 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com:
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
On 28 March 2018 at 11:41, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote: Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
There are plenty of immature and nonprofessional people in the world of software but seriously, claiming *eliot* is one of them is just plain stupid.
If you have actual information that might point to problems we can fix, provide it. Otherwise you might consider just how bad such foul-mouthged rants make you look to potential customers.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "Bother" said Pooh, as his rucksack opened whilst skydiving
Hi Jan,
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for incident, put Pharo which i downloaded crashed, and the same with my old image and new vm and new 64 bit. Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
Specifically what is unprofessional and immature about my work? The thread you originally responded to was one where I pointed out that the Pharo VM was out-of-date. I referred to a bug that was mine (have you ever released software containing bugs?), and that I had fixed, as promptly as I could once I had an error report. How is that being unprofessional?
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
How do you conclude this from my actions? And what specifically about what I've done for the Pharo VM is a "nasty job"? Do you know that I am not responsible for the Pharo VM? That I don't build it, and that I help maintain it pro bono. Do you know that Spur is now faster than VisualWorks and once Scorch/Sista is stable and in production that the VM will be significantly faster than VisualWorks? How is that in Cincom's benefit?
Thanks, and sorry once more for this incident.
Thanks for what, and specifically which incident to you refer to?
2018-03-28 3:36 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com:
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Hope everyone doesn't mind but I'd like to jump in.
David was right to moderate. There is no benefit to continuing this discussion. Everyone working on the VM is extremely capable and dedicated to doing a really terrific job. We all support and admire the work you are doing. I see bugs and issues well isolated for development, I see great care going into protecting the dev build and swift corrections when something goes wrong. I see everyone stepping up and solving real issues and supporting a large amount of change in an extremely professional way that frankly I'm very proud of!
Let's move on!
I recommend putting the moderator bit back on for Jan.
All the best,
Ron Teitelbaum
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jan,
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for incident, put Pharo which i downloaded crashed, and the same with my old image and new vm and new 64 bit. Eliot is maybe just too good guy, but consequences for future and vm which are so complicated and unstable just pointing to his unmature and nonprofesional work.
Specifically what is unprofessional and immature about my work? The thread you originally responded to was one where I pointed out that the Pharo VM was out-of-date. I referred to a bug that was mine (have you ever released software containing bugs?), and that I had fixed, as promptly as I could once I had an error report. How is that being unprofessional?
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
How do you conclude this from my actions? And what specifically about what I've done for the Pharo VM is a "nasty job"? Do you know that I am not responsible for the Pharo VM? That I don't build it, and that I help maintain it pro bono. Do you know that Spur is now faster than VisualWorks and once Scorch/Sista is stable and in production that the VM will be significantly faster than VisualWorks? How is that in Cincom's benefit?
Thanks, and sorry once more for this incident.
Thanks for what, and specifically which incident to you refer to?
2018-03-28 3:36 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com:
David T. Lewis wrote
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people… We should all be proud of that.
Hear! Hear!
David T. Lewis wrote
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email.
I'm interested in seeing them.
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-VM-f104410.html
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
-- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot
Specifically what is unprofessional and immature about my work? The thread you originally responded to was one where I pointed out that the Pharo VM was out-of-date. I referred to a bug that was mine (have you ever released software containing bugs?), and that I had fixed, as promptly as I could once I had an error report. How is that being unprofessional?
For me is unprofessional any advanced future improvements that leads to less stable and less robust vm. I dont need "significaly faster" vm ( speed of old squeak is acceptable ), i need less comlicated and more robust solution for future.
Maybe Cincom is not financing him to do this nasty job to pharo and vm, but it seems so.
How do you conclude this from my actions? And what specifically about what I've done for the Pharo VM is a "nasty job"? Do you know that I am not responsible for the Pharo VM? That I don't build it, and that I help maintain it pro bono. Do you know that Spur is now faster than VisualWorks and once Scorch/Sista is stable and in production that the VM will be significantly faster than VisualWorks? How is that in Cincom's benefit?
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source community, or no?
-- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot
Barger, you're doing a good job of making yourself look like an idiot. This is usually a good time to stop digging.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim when people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other
On 29 March 2018 at 05:47, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source community, or no?
Personal attacks are *not okay* on any of our community mailing lists. Stop it.
- Bert -
Right. Eliot should make new vm just for himself, and then he will not be able to make any damagees to others... /// now kill me
2018-03-29 14:33 GMT+02:00 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 29 March 2018 at 05:47, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source community, or no?
Personal attacks are *not okay* on any of our community mailing lists. Stop it.
- Bert -
Hi, Jan.
There are many stable and robust spell checkers out there. How come you do not seem to make use of any of them? Well, I think we all agree that your posts could significantly benefit from less typos so that any justified argumentation that might be hidden underneath can be exposed. I consider such writing support basically "for free". Yet, you do not seem to care or even try, which makes me wonder: Can you even appreciate the effort one puts into a complex project for others to tackle even more complex projects?
As long as you, Jan, are not able to show even a little sign of understanding and compassion towards such a challenging endeavor of developing a fast, robust virtual machine, we all should simply observe -- not judge -- your actions while you will hopefully learn and work on your own professional skills.
And to our entire community: Keep up the good work! There will be sunshine after some rainy days. :-)
Best, Marcel Am 29.03.2018 16:17:27 schrieb Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com: Right. Eliot should make new vm just for himself, and then he will not be able to make any damagees to others... /// now kill me
2018-03-29 14:33 GMT+02:00 Bert Freudenberg :
On 29 March 2018 at 05:47, Jan Barger wrote:
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source community, or no?
Personal attacks are *not okay* on any of our community mailing lists. Stop it.
- Bert -
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Right. Eliot should make new vm just for himself, and then he will not be able to make any damagees to others... /// now kill me
2018-03-29 14:33 GMT+02:00 Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de [mailto:bert@freudenbergs.de]>:
On 29 March 2018 at 05:47, Jan Barger <barniisk@gmail.com [mailto:barniisk@gmail.com]> wrote:
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source community, or no?
Personal attacks are not okay on any of our community mailing lists. Stop it.
- Bert -
--
Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk [http://www.barnet.sk] www.napri.sk [http://www.napri.sk]
There are many stable and robust spell checkers out there. How come you do not seem to make use of any of them? Well, I think we all agree that your posts could significantly benefit from less typos so that any justified argumentation that might be hidden underneath can be exposed. I consider such writing support basically "for free". Yet, you do not seem to care or even try, which makes me wonder: Can you even appreciate the effort one puts into a complex project for others to tackle even more complex projects?
“But let no one imagine that we were mere ascetics. There is no more complex pleasure than thought, and it was to thought that we delivered ourselves over.” ― Jorge Luis Borges https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/500.Jorge_Luis_Borges, The Aleph and Other Stories https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2707897
As long as you, Jan, are not able to show even a little sign of understanding and compassion towards such a challenging endeavor of developing a fast, robust virtual machine, we all should simply observe -- not judge -- your actions while you will hopefully learn and work on your own professional skills.
I am going a little bit backward, i know. But this is the right way for
now.
And to our entire community: Keep up the good work! There will be sunshine after some rainy days. :-)
Best, Marcel
Am 29.03.2018 16:17:27 schrieb Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com: Right. Eliot should make new vm just for himself, and then he will not be able to make any damagees to others... /// now kill me
2018-03-29 14:33 GMT+02:00 Bert Freudenberg :
On 29 March 2018 at 05:47, Jan Barger wrote:
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source
community, or
no?
Personal attacks are *not okay* on any of our community mailing lists. Stop it.
- Bert -
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Right. Eliot should make new vm just for himself, and then he will not be able to make any damagees to others... /// now kill me
2018-03-29 14:33 GMT+02:00 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 29 March 2018 at 05:47, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Why you are not still at CINCOM when you are so cool and smart? They should pay and want such a genius more than this open source community, or no?
Personal attacks are *not okay* on any of our community mailing lists. Stop it.
- Bert -
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
On 29 March 2018 at 11:47, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
Specifically what is unprofessional and immature about my work? The thread you originally responded to was one where I pointed out that the Pharo VM was out-of-date. I referred to a bug that was mine (have you ever released software containing bugs?), and that I had fixed, as promptly as I could once I had an error report. How is that being unprofessional?
For me is unprofessional any advanced future improvements that leads to less stable and less robust vm. I dont need "significaly faster" vm ( speed of old squeak is acceptable ), i need less complicated and more robust solution for future.
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits, which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
btw, again I ask... 1. Which OS version were you running Pharo on? 2. Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo? 3. Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the version/date of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
cheers -ben
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits,
What i see on Eliot web pages are these most often occured words:
fast ( cogblog ) double its speed ( VW ) chip design support ( hic current company )
But, where are the nice and beutiful high ideas like these from Allan Kay and others? Where are final simlicity and usability?
Sorry this Eliot thinking and programming style ( assembler like thinking and supit overoptimizations ) is leading to some kind of all asociated programmers hell ... COG, SPUR whatewer next - he is the number 1. in Open VM and it seems nobody else is care about where it leads and how to change it
which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating
systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
Maybe i will try anything where Eliot is not putting his hands.
btw, again I ask...
- Which OS version were you running Pharo on?
Pharo 6.1 on Debian Linux
- Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo?
Both version, old images and vm work OK
- Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the version/date
of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
I will try squeak, and then give you my opinion. But i preffer Pharo for Seaside support and style and more proffesional look of webpage and previous good images and vms.
Jan. www.mageo.club
GAME OVER :)
One pair of my smelly socs ws giga-scale, giga-hertz SoCs
2018-03-30 5:26 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits,
What i see on Eliot web pages are these most often occured words:
fast ( cogblog ) double its speed ( VW ) chip design support ( hic current company )
But, where are the nice and beutiful high ideas like these from Allan Kay and others? Where are final simlicity and usability?
Sorry this Eliot thinking and programming style ( assembler like thinking and supit overoptimizations ) is leading to some kind of all asociated programmers hell ... COG, SPUR whatewer next - he is the number 1. in Open VM and it seems nobody else is care about where it leads and how to change it
which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating
systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
Maybe i will try anything where Eliot is not putting his hands.
btw, again I ask...
- Which OS version were you running Pharo on?
Pharo 6.1 on Debian Linux
- Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo?
Both version, old images and vm work OK
- Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the
version/date of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
I will try squeak, and then give you my opinion. But i preffer Pharo for Seaside support and style and more proffesional look of webpage and previous good images and vms.
Jan. www.mageo.club
Giga scale, giga hertz, washed SoCs
2018-03-30 7:17 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
GAME OVER :)
One pair of my smelly socs ws giga-scale, giga-hertz SoCs
2018-03-30 5:26 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits,
What i see on Eliot web pages are these most often occured words:
fast ( cogblog ) double its speed ( VW ) chip design support ( hic current company )
But, where are the nice and beutiful high ideas like these from Allan Kay and others? Where are final simlicity and usability?
Sorry this Eliot thinking and programming style ( assembler like thinking and supit overoptimizations ) is leading to some kind of all asociated programmers hell ... COG, SPUR whatewer next - he is the number 1. in Open VM and it seems nobody else is care about where it leads and how to change it
which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating
systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
Maybe i will try anything where Eliot is not putting his hands.
btw, again I ask...
- Which OS version were you running Pharo on?
Pharo 6.1 on Debian Linux
- Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo?
Both version, old images and vm work OK
- Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the
version/date of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
I will try squeak, and then give you my opinion. But i preffer Pharo for Seaside support and style and more proffesional look of webpage and previous good images and vms.
Jan. www.mageo.club
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
2018-03-30 8:12 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Giga scale, giga hertz, washed SoCs
2018-03-30 7:17 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
GAME OVER :)
One pair of my smelly socs ws giga-scale, giga-hertz SoCs
2018-03-30 5:26 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits,
What i see on Eliot web pages are these most often occured words:
fast ( cogblog ) double its speed ( VW ) chip design support ( hic current company )
But, where are the nice and beutiful high ideas like these from Allan Kay and others? Where are final simlicity and usability?
Sorry this Eliot thinking and programming style ( assembler like thinking and supit overoptimizations ) is leading to some kind of all asociated programmers hell ... COG, SPUR whatewer next - he is the number 1. in Open VM and it seems nobody else is care about where it leads and how to change it
which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating
systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
Maybe i will try anything where Eliot is not putting his hands.
btw, again I ask...
- Which OS version were you running Pharo on?
Pharo 6.1 on Debian Linux
- Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo?
Both version, old images and vm work OK
- Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the
version/date of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
I will try squeak, and then give you my opinion. But i preffer Pharo for Seaside support and style and more proffesional look of webpage and previous good images and vms.
Jan. www.mageo.club
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.okoun.cz
This looks more like psychotic symptoms and obsessional/delusional disorders than constructive and positive attitude. This is not going anywhere but round in circles. It's time to administer some remedy. David, could you switch on the moderate flag ?
2018-03-30 8:14 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
2018-03-30 8:12 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Giga scale, giga hertz, washed SoCs
2018-03-30 7:17 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
GAME OVER :)
One pair of my smelly socs ws giga-scale, giga-hertz SoCs
2018-03-30 5:26 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits,
What i see on Eliot web pages are these most often occured words:
fast ( cogblog ) double its speed ( VW ) chip design support ( hic current company )
But, where are the nice and beutiful high ideas like these from Allan Kay and others? Where are final simlicity and usability?
Sorry this Eliot thinking and programming style ( assembler like thinking and supit overoptimizations ) is leading to some kind of all asociated programmers hell ... COG, SPUR whatewer next - he is the number 1. in Open VM and it seems nobody else is care about where it leads and how to change it
which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating
systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
Maybe i will try anything where Eliot is not putting his hands.
btw, again I ask...
- Which OS version were you running Pharo on?
Pharo 6.1 on Debian Linux
- Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo?
Both version, old images and vm work OK
- Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the
version/date of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
I will try squeak, and then give you my opinion. But i preffer Pharo for Seaside support and style and more proffesional look of webpage and previous good images and vms.
Jan. www.mageo.club
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.okoun.cz
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.okoun.cz
+1
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 03:10, Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com wrote:
This looks more like psychotic symptoms and obsessional/delusional disorders than constructive and positive attitude. This is not going anywhere but round in circles. It's time to administer some remedy. David, could you switch on the moderate flag ?
2018-03-30 8:14 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
2018-03-30 8:12 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Giga scale, giga hertz, washed SoCs
2018-03-30 7:17 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
GAME OVER :)
One pair of my smelly socs ws giga-scale, giga-hertz SoCs
2018-03-30 5:26 GMT+02:00 Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com:
Much of the stability issues are not related to speed but to the conversion to 64-bits,
What i see on Eliot web pages are these most often occured words:
fast ( cogblog ) double its speed ( VW )
chip design support ( hic current company )
But, where are the nice and beutiful high ideas like these from Allan Kay and others? Where are final simlicity and usability?
Sorry this Eliot thinking and programming style ( assembler like thinking and supit overoptimizations ) is leading to some kind of all asociated programmers hell ... COG, SPUR whatewer next - he is the number 1. in Open VM and it seems nobody else is care about where it leads and how to change it
which is *critical* for our community since over time modern operating systems are making it harder to run 32-bit applications. A lot of the complexity is probably in the Cog-JIT, so perhaps StackInterpreter build of the VM would provide the balance of stability and speed you desire (@All, how would you rate that option?)
Maybe i will try anything where Eliot is not putting his hands.
btw, again I ask...
- Which OS version were you running Pharo on?
Pharo 6.1 on Debian Linux
- Were you running 32-bit or 64-bit Pharo?
Both version, old images and vm work OK
- Which links did you download Pharo from? i.e. what is the version/date of both VM and Image? Often we can advise that specific VM/Image has a known bug that has since been fixed.
I will try squeak, and then give you my opinion. But i preffer Pharo for Seaside support and style and more proffesional look of webpage and previous good images and vms.
Jan. www.mageo.club
--
Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
--
Ing. Jan Barger
www.okoun.cz
--
Ing. Jan Barger
www.okoun.cz
https://www.okoun.cz/boards/eliot_miranda_and_his_ambition_of_smalltalk_domi...
Here are some independent and ban free place. Lets see who is right. Thanks for support. I will put here all my feelings and answers. Here you can man me forever and am not responsible for your future mistakes, i just want to warn you.
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 09:10:57AM +0200, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
This looks more like psychotic symptoms and obsessional/delusional disorders than constructive and positive attitude. This is not going anywhere but round in circles. It's time to administer some remedy. David, could you switch on the moderate flag ?
Done.
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 07:29:13PM -0400, David T. Lewis wrote:
Changing the subject line in case follow up discussion is needed.
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:02:25PM -0700, Eliot Miranda wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:13 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's account.
Let's not be too precious. I'm happy to debate him on this and it's important.
I put a "moderate" flag on a list poster who had sent what I perceived to be a personal attack with abusive language and no meaningful factual content. I did this not only because the post was inappropriate, but also because abusive trolling can be harmful and distracting, and I thought it better to hit the pause pause button sooner rather than later.
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and constructive people who like to do good work, and who like to help others do the same. I have quietly served as the list admin, and I have never had to deal with any problem more serious than an accidentally oversized PNG attachment. We should all be proud of that.
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email. But unless the members of this list say otherwise, I will leave them blocked.
I have removed the "moderate" flag, and all is back to normal.
Dave
On 28 March 2018 at 20:44, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 07:29:13PM -0400, David T. Lewis wrote:
Changing the subject line in case follow up discussion is needed.
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:02:25PM -0700, Eliot Miranda wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:13 AM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com
wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this
mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the
poster's account.
Let's not be too precious. I'm happy to debate him on this and it's
important.
I put a "moderate" flag on a list poster who had sent what I perceived to be a personal attack with abusive language and no meaningful factual content. I did this not only because the post was inappropriate, but also because abusive trolling can be harmful and distracting, and I thought it better to hit the pause pause button sooner rather than later.
Hi Dave,
I think your first instinct was appropriate. It was not a ban. Acting immediately provides a strong direction to amend behaviour, and keeping it short gives a second chance to do so.
I find this good advice...
Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by
people actively applying them, visibly, in public.
Remember: When that hacker tells you that you've screwed up, and (no
matter how gruffly) tells you not to do it again, he's acting out of concern for (1) you and (2) his community. It would be much easier for him to ignore you and filter you out of his life. (http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing)
Going forward. I think its clear from the community outpouring how we appreciate Eliot. Further defense of honour may be noise feeding a troll or leading Jan off topic. So lets double our own efforts to keep our responses to Jan concise and technical focused and monitor how that pans out.
cheers -ben
The vm-dev list has for many years been inhabited by talented and
constructive
people who like to do good work, and who like to help others do the same. I have quietly served as the list admin, and I have never had to deal
with
any problem more serious than an accidentally oversized PNG attachment. We should all be proud of that.
If anyone would like to see the messages that have been blocked so far, I will be happy to forward them to private email. But unless the members of this list say otherwise, I will leave them blocked.
I have removed the "moderate" flag, and all is back to normal.
Dave
There are now nine more messages from this poster awaiting moderator approval. None of them contains content appropriate for the list. I will leave the moderator block in place.
Dave
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 06:13:40AM -0400, David T. Lewis wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's account.
Dave
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:13:01AM +0200, Jan Barger wrote:
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best. // Good Bye
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion relating
to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there is
no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
I wonder if its a trolling bot/virus? If you look half way down the following list Jan's next last post was circa 2007. http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node= 1294792&query=message%3Abarger&days=0&sort=date
Thats a long time to hold a grudge to make such an outburst.
cheers -ben
On 28 March 2018 at 06:44, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
There are now nine more messages from this poster awaiting moderator approval. None of them contains content appropriate for the list. I will leave the moderator block in place.
Dave
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 06:13:40AM -0400, David T. Lewis wrote:
The tone and wording of this post are not appropriate for this mailing
list.
As list admin, I have temporarily set the "moderate" bit on the poster's
account.
Dave
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:13:01AM +0200, Jan Barger wrote:
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best.
//
Good Bye
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion
relating
to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind
us that
they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows
The
Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and
there is
no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the
autobuild
Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can
get some
better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems
building
thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple
oversight?
And why is the package naming of the form
squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz
but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus
looking
like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Hi Jan,
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 1:13 AM, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best. // Good Bye
I wonder what specifically is "fucked up". I think everybody contributing here wants things not to be "fucked up", and pitching in and helping is more constructive than flinging mud, and more likely to produce results. Jan, can you list some specific issues you'd like to see addressed (technical or social)?
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion relating
to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there
is no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
Eliot,
See my response to this post earlier this morning. I put a moderator hold on Jan's account, so he will not be able to immediately reply. I will check the backlog of his held messages when I get home in a couple of hours and release them if appropriate.
I would be happy to see this thread return to its intended subject, see Tim's original questions below.
Dave
Hi Jan,
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 1:13 AM, Jan Barger barniisk@gmail.com wrote:
You fucket it up all Miranda and banda ... old snail squeak was best. // Good Bye
I wonder what specifically is "fucked up". I think everybody contributing here wants things not to be "fucked up", and pitching in and helping is more constructive than flinging mud, and more likely to produce results. Jan, can you list some specific issues you'd like to see addressed (technical or social)?
2018-03-23 1:59 GMT+01:00 tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org:
Ping. We could do with some info on these questions...
On 08-03-2018, at 3:14 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
At the last SOB meeting we had a couple of minutes discussion
relating to some recent VM issues; this is just to wave the flag and remind us that they are out there and could do with answering by anyone that Knows The Truth.
a) Squeak3D plugin is only built on ARM config. Simple oversight in
config files?
b) B3DAcceleratorPlugin on Pi; it needs assorted gl.h files and there
is no easy to spot doc of what packages have been installed on the autobuild Pi that provide them. In general that lead us to wonder if we can get some better documentation about the whole build/test/bintray setup on squeak.org so that we spread the knowledge a bit better.
c) Also Pi related - the Pi vms appear to be itimer versions, which
appear to give somewhat variable performance. I have no problems building thread timer vms, which seem much more consistent. Why is the thread version a problem in the autobuilder world? Or is it a simple oversight? And why is the package naming of the form squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_itimer_201803052012.tar.gz but the VM directory still named as sqcogspurlinuxhtRPi and thus looking like the threaded timer?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim BASIC is to computer programming as QWERTY is to typing.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 29A, the hexadecimal of the Beast.
-- Ing. Jan Barger
www.barnet.sk www.napri.sk
-- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot
vm-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Ben Coman -
Bert Freudenberg -
David T. Lewis -
Eliot Miranda -
henry -
Jan Barger -
Marcel Taeumel -
Nicolas Cellier -
Ron Teitelbaum -
Sean P. DeNigris -
tim Rowledge