Hi Andreas,
a simple question: why do you warn others about "jumping heads-on" into a "frenzy" technology, when you never had a deeper look at Metacello or the simple config I provided for VMMaker?
I havent changed a single package in VMMaker, the loading order, etc. you can continue to load and use VMMaker as before. Even in your own custom images. Nothing has changed!!!
The only thing that is different now is that there is an easy way for Metacello users to load VMMaker into Squeak or Pharo. If you dont like Metacello - no problem - you dont have to use it.
As I said - the config is just additionally available. One can use it or ignore it - but we need feedback from David or other VM maintainers (like you) about the VMMaker Monticello package dependencies and Monticello file versions to keep this config maintained. If they change it would be good to update the config. Nothing more!
Given the dependencies of Metacello itself I think there is an actual risk of that happening
Please enlighten me. Where do you see that risk? Did we introduce a dependency for VMMaker on Universe or SqueakMap code when we registered VMMaker there? No! Sample applies to Metacello.
BTW, it is unfair to spam your message to both Squeak-dev and the Pharo list just to paint me as a nay-sayer in the community.
Now you are the one who is interpreting! I wrote my original mail and the response to all three lists and since I use a web browser for reading (sqf.org/pipermail) and answering (GMX) I didnt notice that you responded only on vm-dev. This is also the reason why I constantly create new threads (sorry guys).
I think you paint yourself as nay-sayer. Why do you warn about someting that help others to move forward. When you work with VMMaker day by day it is easy for you to follow all the package changes and stay on track.
But if someone wants to build a VM he will not start with google and search for the right packages. He will just load it with all dependencies. Metacello provides an easy way to do that. Nothing more.
If there are none, that's great. However, the last time I loaded some Metacello stuff (which is a couple of weeks ago) it pulled in all sorts of things including OmniBrowser and left some modification in other packages.
Will you blame Metacello for loading something that was depending on OmniBrowser or that someone created a configuration with packages overriding others? Then help to clean the config.
Metacello is a vehicle to describe package dependencies and versions that fit together. You can even unload it easily after it brought in the code.
Again - please invest a few minutes in learning about metacello!
Thanks T.
Hi Torsten -
I am not interesting in arguing. I have looked at Metacello, quite seriously, a while ago. It's true, I didn't load your config before writing my note, for which I apologize. Things seem to have improved significantly from when I last looked at it, which is good news.
Cheers, - Andreas
Torsten Bergmann wrote:
Hi Andreas,
a simple question: why do you warn others about "jumping heads-on" into a "frenzy" technology, when you never had a deeper look at Metacello or the simple config I provided for VMMaker?
I havent changed a single package in VMMaker, the loading order, etc. you can continue to load and use VMMaker as before. Even in your own custom images. Nothing has changed!!!
The only thing that is different now is that there is an easy way for Metacello users to load VMMaker into Squeak or Pharo. If you dont like Metacello - no problem - you dont have to use it.
As I said - the config is just additionally available. One can use it or ignore it - but we need feedback from David or other VM maintainers (like you) about the VMMaker Monticello package dependencies and Monticello file versions to keep this config maintained. If they change it would be good to update the config. Nothing more!
Given the dependencies of Metacello itself I think there is an actual risk of that happening
Please enlighten me. Where do you see that risk? Did we introduce a dependency for VMMaker on Universe or SqueakMap code when we registered VMMaker there? No! Sample applies to Metacello.
BTW, it is unfair to spam your message to both Squeak-dev and the Pharo list just to paint me as a nay-sayer in the community.
Now you are the one who is interpreting! I wrote my original mail and the response to all three lists and since I use a web browser for reading (sqf.org/pipermail) and answering (GMX) I didnt notice that you responded only on vm-dev. This is also the reason why I constantly create new threads (sorry guys).
I think you paint yourself as nay-sayer. Why do you warn about someting that help others to move forward. When you work with VMMaker day by day it is easy for you to follow all the package changes and stay on track.
But if someone wants to build a VM he will not start with google and search for the right packages. He will just load it with all dependencies. Metacello provides an easy way to do that. Nothing more.
If there are none, that's great. However, the last time I loaded some Metacello stuff (which is a couple of weeks ago) it pulled in all sorts of things including OmniBrowser and left some modification in other packages.
Will you blame Metacello for loading something that was depending on OmniBrowser or that someone created a configuration with packages overriding others? Then help to clean the config.
Metacello is a vehicle to describe package dependencies and versions that fit together. You can even unload it easily after it brought in the code.
Again - please invest a few minutes in learning about metacello!
Thanks T.
vm-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Andreas Raab -
Torsten Bergmann