Squeak-dev October 2002

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183 participants
406 discussions

RE: An uncomfortable question
by danielv＠netvision.net.il 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

About spaggheti hell, I agree completely, hence the Spaghetti tracer I'm developing. It already does some cool things, if you're willing to play with snippets and read the code. You're welcome to try it out, the SM description includes some examples for starting out. I'll probably have something that's worth playing with even if you just want to use it soon. Hint - I'm very glad Ned just published his Connectors on SM, now I can depend on people having it... About solutions-better-than-dlls - at ESUG, I heard many things David Simmons had to say about selector name spaces + other technologies that can be used in SmallScript (assuming that's the sort of thing you mean, Stephan). I think these technologies represent a vast improvement over existing ones - they can allow people to live with competing, closed source solutions for much longer, which, in that environment, is a great advantage. And having scuba gear to wear might be a life saver, if you have to live off the ocean, but us people of the plains might be better off treating it as entertainment.. (but of course, I certainly could be wrong). Daniel Vainsencher Stephen Pair <spair(a)acm.org> wrote: > Hi Andreas, > > I wish we had DLL-hell in Squeak, but we aren't even that evolved. What > we have now is Spaghetti-hell, which is even worse. But, I think we can > come up with a solution that is much better than the DLL solution. > > - Stephen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: squeak-dev-admin(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > [mailto:squeak-dev-admin@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On > > Behalf Of Andreas Raab > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:47 PM > > To: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > Subject: RE: An uncomfortable question > > > > > > Hi Dean, > > > > Let me drop in a note here. Modules are no DLLs - they are > > not shared runtime components. E.g., DLL-hell as we know it > > from Windows is due to the fact that no developer can foresee > > what DLLs any customer may have installed on his or her > > system at *runtime*. This is very different from detecting > > and handling problems at *development* time. > > > > Cheers, > > - Andreas

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The Taste of Smalltalk Scanned, OCRed... ready to enjoy
by au miau 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Thank You very much for that great book - to all who participate that not easy and time consuming work , and of course to autors ! I hope that it will help more people to realise that sharing sources is not as great like sharing knowlege and ideas . Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://Kinomania.GBG.bg - Само тук! Всичко за Киномания 2002

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[ANN][GOODIE] SIXX 0.1d release
by Masashi Umezawa 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Hi, SIXX (Smalltalk Instance eXchange in XML) has been updated. (now 0.1d). http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~umejava/smalltalk/sixx/index.html >From this version, variable-but-not-bits objects can be (de)serialized. (Thanks to Steve Waring). Also error handling has been improved. So it is rare to encounter errors when using SIXX. SIXX runs on Squeak. VW, and Dolphin Smalltalk. Try SIXX for storing/loading Smalltalk objects in a neutral XML format! --- [:masashi | ^umezawa]

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Re: [ENH] SMLoaderMVC-nk
by danielv＠netvision.net.il 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Hi Ned, just looked this over, it looks good except for one thing - I wonder if the #perform:orSendTo: mechanism is the best place for putting the code for switching filters on and off, especially since this is implemented in a few methods already. Is there an MVC specific reason not to use #toggleFilterState:? Daniel Vainsencher Ned Konz <ned(a)bike-nomad.com> wrote: > > --Boundary_(ID_YFIQDZtVuxAkp5rt3XSHKg) > Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > from preamble: > > "Change Set: SMLoaderMVC-nk > Date: 26 October 2002 > Author: Ned Konz > > This makes the SMLoader work with MVC > as well as Morphic. > " > > SMLoader allSubInstancesDo: [ :ea | (ea isKindOf: SystemWindow) ifTrue: > [ ea delete ]].! > > --Boundary_(ID_YFIQDZtVuxAkp5rt3XSHKg) > Content-type: application/octet-stream; NAME=SMLoaderMVC-nk.cs.gz > Content-transfer-encoding: base64 > Content-disposition: attachment; filename=SMLoaderMVC-nk.cs.gz > > H4sIAAAAAAAAANVY33PbNhJ+Zmb4P6ztB9k3qWrZsXPhzc1c6pxncrGbTOVLptNRMhAJSahI > gAVBq+rkj79vAVKiZMVxr+5DXyQCWCz217dYbO/SmoKGv9RSzE/7J2QmNBjQf+p8SSfHxyf0 > Uy6crBzVZYaPhA6evTg7GZHRdHJOb1NnxtIGSuFokDx7kQxeUFn09uL9i5nQU0lD6ZIoGl5f > GZFJe/3+4hs9j18xsyiKtpjEL2s3M5ZXvpcZvTH6tzi+mamKCjGXFbkZ+DWcaGHsnBbKzQhM > Y1HRQuY54f/a2HKm0n68H8crapHnw3r8WldO6FRWr0xCP1EiBX2mQ/yq6o3S2dtJQsNl5WTx > ASOzOCI1ubG1ZFoQZTKXTtJo1N+L42uDIVX1OM1FVcEy7VFxpJpT3gurxDiX34tCgqJXeTNf > i5JKkc7FVFZXCrbtDl7rTP5KOFrnYPZKWQnz2CVNVO6gRS+O/HHbnDFfGpO/UqlTRmOxnU1h > 6CkYYDS8/iYICOfEeyvDFBImz6pLmJ16OUSoegTxixJDPafB8bcn5996Dw9Ok5O/Y7PIsksv > TnVjrqWuExL8R3H0uZFzuCzGJqeZzEv6HEeVzCftSinTKo6ijO2fhLmX1ool/IDpaGP/J+oS > VDI1OuszlWe8uepmyobFYQFfO5HP4dQmFHg6WrnSS+unogi6/JdDW+kpXFjNzCKoNnSWpxoq > J+wUYUysSDOFT+8a7HJmOs1lu48ju2Vup3UhtWPHJnQYBOWITTbsdNQP9MGKY0hvjL6Rvzr4 > 5EogJhCPiTfmqFHkUuQVa3LYsSwpneZ1xo7fYN7Isqk9QW/4NzOkjaMePd2w5URZhKXwsQS5 > e1ZW0l2uqRrOwFr4Gq3OaAXrHHIf46+wHY326MuxOq0VjWuVZ3DUfSF7ipAdA2JTa2qdXZjc > AKIfveUyORF17r7bXP3Dh54EnHg65KaLgEEVEM4oYZgxMA79R/JPepfX0ykDmineK7kgLZF9 > YFc2VBN2uQ+jg3TFDiK9C7kjbgNSwuJa5RinPv0Ot2YLj9fwPZdIddbMpZ9AEH7kEx5D+xcd > 7RsJ3wktWfXSFaw5/3X15nBnvX0kdXQG9rDCWhvtAKXKz4k0laVr9YgiK0UWNPWB1U6vlO1H > +wdNll2R0X6QIjfpnHXH95+kenD7k7XfnzSO//RFvz/pWIEavzcKcMpvGHadfnD3FtmOgLsk > iWcSzLRaDSm9Exwb+97IZTJBzZD0sfdxAmaQnA1WVgsJ+/dCxm/7C2MGJjjZMsHDcROU/2sj > 5zQ5PYcBUsjjJKAT6i9W3JnSA6ORYgWUtrJZTTQE/huWavd9ItzJOhM2C5VdizIquIAL5uqv > ycfGQoMPKuNbeoCF/VyMUeiBBRVKD9VvkhyKUQ0BrOR6ebzEZ55Ly2bZEvJTQPCuhNC/Qw3L > L7zauBqP6V90THAgPJfQGQ+fHx915MTdinqWP5Nt0/TXZd+XBNnE144N/7csd0525gc1nTku > re/K2fXZbltx/G8Sflm0wTGP8fsVQwVHy9zstF27EcWJLw0ZZixFdclpjw4OtzPx7vRCR5u8 > rjiMfBlOLUVTjjOG2jB/DCCdrYEUUskaTDAcY4P/Pm28dBgR/bCwiQuegQk9Jxi846JdmXoT > PsdcfE4szMSu6p95Z6XGamkZW955/fOjB5zSBc59Z2yc0Jz4u05gR3/tgP75lhL4bY9obp+D > wtSV/DcSr/XXjA7Xr5Y3VuhK+WSLBYdXEHbt2nslxa18+N4/GKxHazb3xymIHqFKenaMEDWl > 1G1kftz9aFu/voPDdkT1ETGf1/qDsXn2D1qa2nrSUdx9j9D6HuF35vpu6LJtb50ObpHxVVEX > nPUTOvXpBTp0gR1SS0VZp6GAH750reFbgUYd8s40i92PsfoYkOeqs5R2YmzhkeufpmTsENFz > A8kMOif2xr9iubjcH7YkC/RLfq4RFunMINSISzsSVPiX6BJfCEXbp9cwktCEh2CJN/hTbsRo > Yk7NoaQc94SKpc8aTI535VPi4OUlZ7oSPKUSjOoCsbr0LR1mJDPlPPi8BAv4d+bXvCQspdK3 > KLuy/j7XnSEcGnEq1rBV+ohL2nXceLo7lhkFojY6uOQJj9G/9dBpcumsw4+2mDXvWX7aHq4s > nZpyGRB3Rq4jDVWInPWLlkbUicn2Yf3gQ3+QhbmVu899/vBzqxoGoQeGS/sI70So70Btxin8 > s0Ro1dqvqYmS2X217vMG/hyKFx58vr7iKYTccNUmCwd6l+97OzAFRvyC8mNf8a8TyRaUHk/Q > t8jLYiXXw8RmQAiaqlusFqLsB7nXejDP9Z6mFbGl3Oa5f56qaJM8g6qhrvJNEG7UYQ8uC9w3 > qIJf6mrBbVT6sElDZvwzwgdYRQM4kzgLQY1EwBifSCvRBkUbNvq4vc0LFaKzeeZq3FDc1M18 > L663bc4ejS0Xkp4FbracBz+i5Wu49Eclkzcrh/4fuvulok5nV0wqgSruoV3LqsKlhhNeAjLA > hpecO38VtJvU6CFnuCetGtd4A7LnuMjH7URlPc5VipwlboXK+aZt/EeVmbgFFO/3vFtWXrEe > sMN1qxAVSFvKAGfCJWVeV8nePTt89u8UJ/fRhnusiY976LiYCJ2ueP+dQcc3tQqPwvhtE8jX > K9ytePjbCqr9D75xHL4wGAAA > > --Boundary_(ID_YFIQDZtVuxAkp5rt3XSHKg)--

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LanguageAgnostic Runtimes'02
by PhiHo Hoang 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Hi, Does anyone know who will be speaking about Squeak VM at this event ? http://hosting.msugs.ch/auroraborealis/Workshops/LAR02/LAR02Home.htm <Quote> While the problem domain is restricted to addressing kernel requirement issues, experience reports from researchers targeting alternative dynamic languages and component models to the JVM, Squeak VM, CLI, or other virtual machine architectures are also welcome. </Quote> Cheers, PhiHo.

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RE: An uncomfortable question
by Swan, Dean 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Colin, Consider the case where there are dependencies between the modules and more than one version of each module. The current effort of implementing modules is attempting to deal with these issues, and it is a non-trivial problem. It is also possible that because of certain interdependencies between different versions of different modules that some modules may become mutually incompatible. This situation is witnessed with MS Windows .DLL libraries quite often. One common effect is that some applications have to be installed on a Windows machine in a particular order in order for them to all function properly on the same machine. There can arise instances where because of different sets of .DLL versions required, a set of applications may not all function correctly on one machine. And regarding SqueakMap and DVS, realize that these are based on the monolithic image model. They are more or less fancy user interfaces to manage filing in the various change sets (I know I'm oversimplifying a bit, but the point is still valid). Of course, monolithic systems have the issue of shared namespaces which can make it difficult to make different packages play nice together in the same image, so like I said, the problem is non-trivial. While it would certainly be possible to produce an MPEG player image, with only the items necessary to play MPEGs, and a MIDI image with only the items needed for MIDI processing, and so on, factoring out the common components can be difficult. This is especially true when some "applications" use different versions of a particular component and rely on some characteristic behavior. A hardware example of this is the 4046 phase locked loop IC. It is a fairly standard part, BUT the Motorola Version and the Philips versions are incompatible in that the external timing components require different values to get the same frequency out of the two parts. The same kind of thing can happen in software. -Dean -----Original Message----- From: Colin Putney [mailto:cputney@whistler.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:03 PM To: squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: An uncomfortable question Hi Dean, I'm not sure that I understand your concern. Modularizing the image would be a very good thing in my view of the world. In fact, I think it's required in order to build the kind of task-specific system you prefer. Modules would let us build custom images for specific purposes, rather than attempt to make the standard image flexible enough for any purpose. If I'm using Squeak for a web application, I don't need an MPEG player in the image. If I'm developing a MIDI application, I don't need Comanche. With the monolithic image, we get bitten coming and going. Not *everything* can be in the standard image, so we frequently have to file in additional classes to get the functionality we need. With the current system this a hassle, much more difficult than it needs to be. On the other hand, the standard image has a bunch of stuff that won't get used most of the time, and removing it from the image is a more than a hassle, it's a nightmare, not to be attempted by mere mortals. So by all means lets consider our goals carefully. I really like the scenario that's emerging from the interaction of SqueakMap and DVS. I hope that we can arrive at a very basic kernel in the image, with easy-to-install packages available from SqueakMap. Cheers, Colin On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 01:46 PM, Swan, Dean wrote: > What 3.3a is trying to do with modules is essentially opening the same > can of worms that has made MS Windows such a maintenance nightmare. > Modules are (more or less) equivalent to .DLLs and may end up with all > the associated issues. I don't know of any "good" solutions to these > problems, but as attractive as the "idea" of modules is, I am > personally content to stick with monolithic images for the forseeable > future. > > The whole concept of "software components" is IMO a fantasy propagated > by media hype that ignores all the realities of real world > engineering. In "real" hardware product designs, one often finds that > re-usability is more of a structuring concept than a hard reality. I > don't believe I've ever worked on a hardware design that didn't > involve some kind of custom connector that is a "slight" variation of > a "standard" connector, for example. (Just for context, I'm referring > to everything I've worked on in the last 12 years or so). > > I think the concept of a monolithic image constrains the reusability > myth to realistic proportions, and makes implementation possible. Too > much flexibility comes at a cost, which usually rears its ugly head in > the form of increased complexity, higher resource requirements, and > reduced preformance (relative to a less flexible implementation). > > As an example of what I'm talking about, I've worked on a couple of > different projects in the last few years where the end product has > similar capabilities but one was implemented using a "flexible, > reusable platform approach" and the other was implemented using a more > task specific approach. > > The flexible system has a source tree for the "platform" of about 5 > gigabytes, generates a target image of about 170 megabytes, and needs > two 300 MHz PowerPC 603e's and 512M of RAM to run. This system has > hundreds of developers working on it. > > The "task specific" system has a source tree of about 300 megabytes, > generates a target image of about 1 megabyte, and runs on one 66 MHz > PowerPC with 16M of RAM. This system had 4 developers working on it. > The end functionalities of these two systems is *very* similar. > > I'm not sure what my point is in all of this, but I think we should > consider our goals carefully in relation to the questions that Andrew > has raised. My preference is towards "lean and mean" rather than > "incredibly flexible, general purpose (and suboptimal)". Colin Putney Whistler.com

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Diff between two change sets
by Nevin Pratt 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Is there any way to get Squeak to show the diffs between two change sets? Nevin

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Re: [ENH] SMPrLoader-nk
by danielv＠netvision.net.il 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Yet another wonderful example why viewing a package should dynamically select the services that could handle it, instead of having fixed menu items, and having to pick the "one right install". A .pr sample would be a nice addition to many packages, not solely an alternative distributoon method... Daniel Vainsencher Ned Konz <ned(a)bike-nomad.com> wrote: > > --Boundary_(ID_F2n/6twZQt9eA/vlxC4SEQ) > Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > from preamble: > > "Change Set: SMPrLoader-nk > Date: 26 October 2002 > Author: Ned Konz > > Adds loading of .pr (Project) files to SqueakMap. > "! > > --Boundary_(ID_F2n/6twZQt9eA/vlxC4SEQ) > Content-type: application/octet-stream; NAME=SMPrLoader-nk.cs.gz > Content-transfer-encoding: base64 > Content-disposition: attachment; filename=SMPrLoader-nk.cs.gz > > H4sIAAAAAAAAAHVUTW/aQBA9+7D/YaAHJ1JCgATaWOoBNUVKG2hUR80BhWqxB9iy3nV316VU > +fGdtY2TtORi2Tvz5uO9tw7HRmcQ/yyQb847fdBL6PXgUyF30O92+zCT3KF1UOQpvUTw5uJy > MHwAraA/hC+J0ws0VSZ3MIguelF3CHkWtlj7w5qrFUKMLgqCeHJrbjRP0ZyqDbvytYIg+KcG > GxVurY2PTDGFz1r9YWyUphYkQYVa+fE6uYGjW6N/YOKOYSkkWnC6XmHC8w5rtxiLJ7HIconX > yjouJTWwxSKR3FrawQ9T4psoC4R/VQl+40bwhcQpz5Byw5AFJezAea61vBKJE1pRsMmm3Vba > 7OgrnpymOuNCER2s9X9XSHSWoXKx41lO+WoDve5Zf3hWEtp7G51fhpAbQZRAt8WugWfAIZ48 > FXBron2j9NbCWm89D6KKHaKpQ1McHCNDoj21Y98ntGh+iQRtCPbVsd7RQnUjFrTv1sJCDQO7 > 1oVMYWG8XG6NkPNkw8kHNJv/TKSgjU+ABYXyIRAOxBIUUkvLzQ64SpslfEzVQJFRlQ7h7p4V > pcZKO7EUZBfyRplXYbmXxaffIxh0hVHgTIG+l87RlGHyRJIgppiewJJLi6CpgtkKi502Y0FN > FCRc3aN376g+mRLXYjn2kAhm8wr80GGBRbmEVG+VN+zhFC+FNxFFp0K+jM1gBnWLm73jc1Rj > uqNXwtBp6atUGM/SuC4UQVPygQWBVpGvsTLE5x03K3Rfke6GpaE9UUm1eaqpM0T4Gx6BHpRc > eDzNsKeWeG1uTwr+ykfw0RhtXmDnFW8eOC8JbsFrLiuv0UuvcQs7pJ+LKmOljK/abhANBmQ7 > 0qIuGQG/rWYlD46U3VIP4T1Apqh6UW5jpWdW7JSmoL9TKrG8J9VP5KjIyRil/6SmYgm3eOxt > 8PhE8OMz/b43/RvF95IclLlReR7mJoT3cOTTG11JBofKkjglN3v8MXB7sx+nJPcvO50qZbMF > AAA= > > --Boundary_(ID_F2n/6twZQt9eA/vlxC4SEQ)--

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Re: [ANN] SqueakMap RC2 and SM Loader 0.96 out
by danielv＠netvision.net.il 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Did you get a dump or something? I haven't gotten around to trying out VI4, so I haven't tested the RB on it. It uses blocks, including calling fixTemps on them, since it sometimes assumes the blocks are closures. Might cause a problem that they suddenly are? When did the hand occur? during use, or during filein? Do you have a recipe that reproduces this? if you do, I'll load VI4 and check it out. Daniel Vainsencher PhiHo Hoang <phiho.hoang(a)rogers.com> wrote: > Hi Göran, > > Everything works like a charm now. Thanks. > > Except when I tried to install RefactoringBrowser into VI4 image. > > Squeak hung .Other packages were installed OK. > > Is it just me and my machine ?. > > Cheers, > > PhiHo. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Göran Hultgren" <goran.hultgren(a)bluefish.se> > To: <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: [ANN] SqueakMap RC2 and SM Loader 0.96 out > > > > Hi Phiho and all! > > > > Quoting PhiHo Hoang <phiho.hoang(a)rogers.com>: > > > Daniel, > > > > > > Is http://anakin.bluefish.se:8000/gohu/11 down now ? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > PhiHo. > > > > I just saw it myself - weird, the machine was up but ComSwiki had "hung". > > I just restarted it - try again, it works for me now. > > > > Hmmm, will need to publish my downloads in a more stable way than ComSwiki > > obviously... > > > > regards, Göran > > > > > > Göran Hultgren, goran.hultgren(a)bluefish.se > > GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se > > \"Department of Redundancy department.\" -- ThinkGeek > >

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Re: An uncomfortable question
by Diego Gomez Deck 31 Oct '02

31 Oct '02

Hi Stef, [snip] >Image are cool for developping, I loved them, saving your objects for >coffee breaks >with the mouse on the right line of the debugger but not for >deployement and source code management. This is not the first time we discuss about this topic, but it's the first "public" time. The image is great, the image is the environment where out objects live and evolve. The image is the place where we find emergence not planned. The emergence is one of the most important features of our technology, just model the domain and you'll find a lot of behavior not planned. (and you will not realize of some emergence behavior because it works) If you get the model running in an environment nothing guarantee that this model will work in the same way in another environment (There are a lot of ecology problems). When you think in modules/packages/parcels/theNameYouLike you stop to think in an environment. I'm not saying I have the solution, but (IMHO) create diferents environments for development and deployment are a bad idea. >Stef Cheers, Diego Gomez Deck

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