Squeak-dev June 2000

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

134 participants
686 discussions

[BUG][Linux] VM2.8 port eats processor cycles
by Stephan Rudlof 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

There is a bug somewhere. Possibly I have found the origin, see below. The new VM2.8 for Linux (Tims port) eats almost all of the processor cycles; typical values for a running VM2.8 Squeak *without* any computations are: 3189 sr 16 0 25236 24M 3832 R 0 99.0 15.8 1:04 squeak "VM2.8" and: 3186 sr 19 0 25208 24M 3844 R 0 8.1 15.8 0:16 _orig_squeak "VM2.7" for the VM2.7, both with same image #2345. Is anybody able to confirm this observation? Where could this processor cycles diminish? How to dig in deeper? Morphic: Pressing Alt-. leads to MorphicEvent class>>new HandMorph>>processEvents [] in PasteUpMorph>>doOneCycleNow Array(SequenceableCollection)>>do: PasteUpMorph>>handsDo: PasteUpMorph>>doOneCycleNow PasteUpMorph>>doOneCycle [] in Project>>spawnNewProcess [] in BlockContext>>newProcess in the debugger. Increasing PasteUpMorph>>MinCycleLapse doesn't change the situation. Digging deeper: The idle process calls ProcessorScheduler>>relinquishProcessorForMicroseconds:, which itself leads to a call of sqXWindow.c line 1517/3563: int ioRelinquishProcessorForMicroseconds(int microSeconds) { /* sleep in select() for immediate response to socket i/o */ #ifdef HEADLESS if ( socketPollFunction ) { socketPollFunction(microSeconds,0);} /* aioPollForIO(microSeconds, 0); */ #else if ( socketPollFunction ) { socketPollFunction(microSeconds,stXfd);} /* aioPollForIO(microSeconds, stXfd); */ #endif return microSeconds; } There is a socketPollFunction, which has to be set by setSocketPollFunction( int spf), because it is initialized to 0; grep'ing for setSocketPollFunction() reveals: sr@Klaus:~/Squeak/2.8/src > grep setSocketPollFunction *.c *.h ../interp.c sqXWindow.c:void setSocketPollFunction( int spf) { . It won't be called! So ioRelinquishProcessorForMicroseconds() returns *very* fast and the idle process doesn't give processor cycles to the OS. If these thoughts are correct, then I have found the bug! Stephan -- Stephan Rudlof (sr(a)evolgo.de) "Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, 'Today I will be brilliant.'" -- Kirk, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4731.3

2 3

Re: PIC/Smalltalk
by JArchibald＠aol.com 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

=> 6/29/00 10:32:16 AM EDT, eat(a)huv.com => << come on Jon, just release it as what I like to call "User Beware Software !!!" >> Please, do release it. I mean we've got things that are supposed to work that we have to beware of. We're grown-ups; we can deal with it. Thanks, Jerry. ____________________________ Jerry L. Archibald systemObjectivesIncorporated ____________________________

2 1

Re: New Web Browser
by Stephane Ducasse 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

Hi jon your browser looks really great. I really hope that we will be able to play with it soon. I was wondering if you could tell us what were the motivations of writing it in Squeak for Interval. Were people thinking to make money with it? What were the plans? This is always interesting to see what other people dream in using squeak. Stef > > Hi Jon -- > > > > We REALLY NEED THIS! > > Okay, Alan, you're convincing me :-) > > While we're waiting to hear from Tim, I can talk about some of the stuff in > the browser... > > It handles tables, and images, although of course it doesn't do a perfect > job or anything. It doesn't do JavaScript, or frames, although I suspect > adding frames would be fairly simple. It has an internal PlugIn > architecture, so external viewers and such can be configured for it. If I > remember correctly, internal images (JPEG & GIF) are also handled using > PlugIns. > > One of the nastiest things in the whole browser is the > "parse-tree-fixer-upper". The people who wrote Netscape and IE should be > taken out against a wall and shot, for allowing such bad HTML to work okay > :-) > > Something like 75% of my effort in writing this browser was figuring out > clever ways to fix the parse tree to form "correct" HTML, so it could > actually lay out pages properly. > > It also loads images in background tasks, and can suspect loading all those > images when you click on another link. It does not use any sub-views in the > window to display anything -- everything is layed out on a singe graphical > view. > > One warning -- this sucker is big... 500 K of source code right now. I've > started working on the port to Squeak 2.7, and have the HTML parser and all > the parse nodes ported (which of course was the easy part). > > It would definitely be cool to see this as a big group effort, to make a > better browser. > > One thing I'd like to do is start up a discussion about what direction we > should go with this. I assume it would be nice to use Morphs to represent > the actual page layout elements. Does anyone have any great (or > not-so-great) thoughts on this subject? > > Do we have JPEG file readers available? We used (at Interval) a custom > image library that was added to the VM, and handled JPEG, GIF, and MPEG > (yes, there's a video plug-in...) > > The link to the screenshots (which I took over 2 years ago) is at > http://www.huv.com/smalltalk , for those who missed the first posting. > > Later, > Jon > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Hylands Jon(a)huv.com http://www.huv.com/jon > > Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle) > http://www.huv.com > Stephane DUCASSE (ducasse(a)iam.unibe.ch) http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/ "if you knew today was your last day on earth, what would you do different? ... especially if, by doing something different, today might not be your last day on earth" Calvin&Hobbes University of Bern, Institut fuer informatik and Mathematik IAM-SCG, 10 neubruckstrasse, CH-3012 Bern, Switzerland.

1 0

Belling the cat of complexity (was: Ship it with Squeak)
by Paul Fernhout 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

Squeakers- There is an old story of how a bunch of mice get together and a have a long debate about what to do about the cat who they live in terror of. The cat is so quiet it can sneak up on a mouse before it knows it and devour it. After long deliberation they hit upon a great idea -- if the cat had a bell around its neck, they would all hear when it was coming and could scurry to safety in advance. The mice relax, all satisfied, until one of them asks, "Well, who is now going to bell the cat?" Squeak complexity in 2.8 has become a complex cat from the simple kitten complexity of 1.13(?) in 1996. Back then, Dan Ingalls wrote on 10 Nov 1996 those prescient words: "The Squeak team has an interest in doing the world's simplest application construction framework, but I suspect that we will get sucked up with enough other things that this won't happen in the next two months (but who knows...)." Squeak 2.8's complexity is now quiet (in terms of walkbacks) and stealthy (in terms of growing between releases without a complaint). And the complexity could be deadly. Witness the recent issue Stefan raised about some Squeak fonts possibly violating a Microsoft EULA. The question should never even arise of the legal integrity of the core release. We might as well just leap right into those jaws of complexity. I appreciate all the comments on "Ship it with Squeak". There were many, many useful suggestions and comments. I have read them all with great interest. Les Tyrrell put the issues very eloquently, and makes me realize this issue for shipping is really best put as "managing complexity in Squeak to reduce the risk of unexpected behavior in an application to an acceptable level". The complexity in Squeak comes in two areas: code issues and license issues. The complexity of the code mudball has been discussed at length. The complexity of the license issue comes up occasionally, and Stefan's point about licenses is an example. Using software without a clear "title" is like buying a house without a "title search" -- someone can always come along later and make a claim against the house. People can always make claims, the issue is that a title search (and related insurance) reduces the risk to the point to reasonable levels. I would recommend looking at the (older) Python submission guidelines for some ideas on what to ask from contributors: http://www.python.org/patches/bugrelease.html http://www.python.org/patches/wetsign.html These are basically statements of originality and disclaimers of contributor's liability. If all contributions to Squeak came with such disclaimers, the licensing concerns would be greatly reduced. The legality of contributions flows through from contributors to CNRI to official legal releases. Now that Guido has moved to the private Pythonlabs, things have changed to: http://www.python.org/patches/ and I don't know the exact status of what is signed to ensure the contributions legal. Who would replace CNRI here in the Squeak case (if anyone) is an issue. A mouse probably can't bell a cat. It's just too hard. But maybe, just maybe, a mouse could bell a kitten. I brainstormed some with Doug Flower about steps to bootstrap Squeak towards usability in business. What came out of that was a sense that a Squeak useable in many of the same areas of Perl might be a good start. He and many others who know Smalltalk have an immediate business need for such sorts of activity. Such a system would be useful if it only was able to read, write, and process text files. And enhanced version might handle sockets and other text streams. Ideally, this system would have an end-user GUI useable for setting parameters for such operations (in dialog fashion), but that is less essential since parameter files could handle this. The reason why this application area is interesting is that it is of real business need, but it does not have all the deployment issues that shipping applications does. A Squeak operating in this area can have more rough edges and still be very useful. People are already doing this with Squeak, and might see the benefit to a smaller size system they could leave with clients or carry on a floppy. So that is what I think makes a good first step towards belling the cat of complexity -- trying to first bell the kitten of file handling utility applications. How should I proceed on this? Here is one approach, although obviously it may have problems and another might be better. Think of this as a "harvesting" process. The Squeak community has generated much useful work -- the time is ripe to harvest it into a stable, legal platform. My first impulse is actually to go all the way back to the first Squeak release (or possibly the last one done at Apple if it is pure Apple code with just minor patches). Then, that version can be reintegrated with later patches that people have made, as long as the contributors are willing to agree to something like the Python disclaimers. Note, these disclaimers might be rewritten to be just general disclaimers, not specific to giving special rights to a company. The disclaimers might also put rights under a Squeak-like license, not as broad a license as Python, depending on what people on this list have to say. One reasons for going all the way back to Apple code is that frankly, I don't know what license Disney changes are really under. Unlike the GPL, the Squeak license names a company. I don't think just including the Apple license with a distribution really says anything about the licensing of your changes. I raised this issue a year or two ago on this list and don't recall getting a decent answer. That uncertainty is probably acceptable for playing around but makes business use harder to accept or promote. [Optional: Of course if one goes back that far (to the orginal release), perhaps one might ask Apple to change the license to one more like Python's so Squeak could be more easily used in embedded systems with specialized VMs. I had a problem with this in terms of legal approaval -- an awkward workaround is to use pipes to communicate from the VM to services, but ultimately the real workaround was to use Python with a less restricitive license. Python shows you don't need a draconian license to get people who want to contribute to contribute. The value to Apple is simply in making a system that helps keep the Mac on a level playing field with all other systems. Also, then Squeak would finally be compatible with GPL'd code.] Such a system would have as its first priority modularizing the image. Such an effort might include tools to assist this process, such as the wonderful effort by the 4th Estate. The effort to manage complexity would take precedence over bug fixes, GUIs, event handling, or anything else. It would also include building the image from scratch -- where every last byte was known and accounted for. Once this old Squeak was modularized, then fixes would be made purely from the standpoint of stability. These would focus primarily on stability of utility related code, and secondarily on stability of development tools. Code would need to be added to handle common text manipulations, including XML input and output. GUI changes would be a minimum needed to control file manipulation. Later, after this stable base existed, one could add all sorts of bells and whistles -- in a modular fashion. I'm sure people will say this would be a lot of work -- perhaps too much for one person. You might be right. Frankly, I still may personally decide that working in another platform instead might be easier, or might say being cross-platform has too high a cost for the rewards. In that case, putting a Squeak-like cross-platform GUI underpinning to Python might be another choice, because I can control the code I write -- I can't control what others do with their license. So it may make sense in the end to just start instead from a system with a clear legal standing and go from there adding Squeak like features. I love Smalltalk -- I'd rather make Squeak work. It is just that the effort does seem substantial. It's easy to say "just do it and it's done" when your salary and your employees' salaries are paid for with other people's money, where those deep pocketed people actually expect you to do unexpected things and trust you to accomplish them whatever it costs. It's also easy to say "just do it and it's done" when there are no legal complexities to worry about -- e.g. you're not in the risk situation where you do it and it's not done because you legally can't ship it. Also, reprising Squeak's evolution Squeak from the start would entail bothering a lot of people on the list to submit patches they already submitted, and even trying to get people making major contributions to sign some sort of actual paper document (exact form to be decided). This certainly isn't fun work for an introvert. I just don't see another way to proceed that handles issues related to the code and legal complexities of producing a minimal Squeak useable for things like XML processing or rewriting text files. There most likely needs to be a legal audit trail of the legitimacy of submissions, and that trail must be guarded by someone who would not let stuff like Microsoft fonts in no matter what the EULA says. The Squeak development process so far has been great in terms of generating code, but not so great in terms of managing complexity of that code or the surrounding legal issues. So maybe now has come the time to harvest the results of all that productive effort? And as any Object Tech Center person would say, Object harvesting is itself a time-consuming process. In summary: If we can't even get together a simple and reliable version of Squeak without a substantial GUI for text file handling which does not have substantial legal issues, then there is no hope for a version of Squeak for shipping cross-platform apps with GUIs. If a utility version of Squeak that is legally sound can be produced, it might serve to bootstrap a more substantial system which could be used to deploy applications. And, hopefully, every time complexity increased in that release, a little bell would ring and we'd know what was coming. More comments appreciated. Thanks again for those who responded to the last post. -Paul Fernhout Kurtz-Fernhout Software ========================================================= Developers of custom software and educational simulations Creators of the Garden with Insight(TM) garden simulator http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com

3 3

AW: [ENH] String splitting
by FWr＠phaidros.com 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

Seems that this makes my little method unnecessary. Thanks! Frank -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Bolot Kerimbaev [mailto:bolot@cc.gatech.edu] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 16:06 An: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu Betreff: Re: [ENH] String splitting Perhaps String>>findTokens: would work? It takes a collection of Characters (e.g., String) as a parameter: ('aloha;bloha;cloha' findTokens: ';') do: [:str | ...] Bolot On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 01:50:58PM +0200, FWr(a)phaidros.com wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just looked for a method to split a string at all occurences of a given > character. Unfortunately I couldn't find a method for this problem. So I > wrote one myself. Maybe it will be of interest for others. > > Frank > >

1 0

Re: External Events/DSO Open Source Offering
by Stephan Rudlof 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

"David L. Caster" wrote: > > Stephan, <snipped> > > > Anyway, I'll trim the archive down to the really useful > > > stuff over the next day or two. If you have something > > > specific that you need, let me know now because I can't > > > promise to have a lot of attention to pay to this after > the > > > end of the week. > > > > > > David L. Caster > > > > It's difficult for me to say what I'm interested in, > because I haven't > > seen your stuff... > > > > The motivation to look onto it has come from the - > currently vague idea > > - to switch Morphic (and possibly MVC) from polling to > real events. And > > your work seems to go into this direction, isn't it? > > > > Yes, that is correct. In fact, getting Squeak to the point > where it could actually sleep (if there was nothing else to > do) pending an OS event was one of the original goals > prompted by the long standing need to get Squeak off of > polling the platform. There is more to this than meets the > eye obviously, but yes, you are correct. > > Anyway, I'll work at making the stuff a little cleaner (more > compact) as I am able. Could you send a post to the Squeak ML, if you are finished? Then I would like to take a look at it ;-) > If you are a VM guy, Yes. > take a look at > squeak27/vm/src/sqExternalMessage to get a feel for the > hoops one has to jump through just to insure a modicum of > confidence in proper synchronization between an external > thread and the VM. Here platform compatibility is an issue. Did you keep this in mind? > You then might want to take a look at > (Squeak image) xmdclinux.image, and in particular the > category External Events (which BTW is right in front of you > when you start the image!) > > C' Currently I have the idea to look for the Morphic part of improving event handling: - simulating real events and - trying to be compatible with the existing stuff; by writing an EventSensor class, which - uses the current polling mechanism and - buffers simulated events to reach compatibility with polling mouse statii in Controller classes. I hope to solve the mouse 'event' eating problem with this approach without the must to have real events (what would be better, of course). Possibly it could help to have a co-existence of polling and event based VM's at different platforms for some intermediate time. This is a first approach (I'm not an event specialist so far), which comes from top - the GUI - and should meet down - VM - at a defined point. What do you think about? Greetings, Stephan -- Stephan Rudlof (sr(a)evolgo.de) "Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, 'Today I will be brilliant.'" -- Kirk, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4731.3

1 0

Re: Updates added to 2.9
by JArchibald＠aol.com 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

I=> 6/29/00 7:58:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, beoneel(a)mindspring.com writes: << The lastest packaged version 2.7. To the best of my knowledge, 2.8 is currently in beta and 2.9 is in alpha. I've built a 2.8 Mac package and there is a 2.8 Windows vm on the FTP site. >> Thanks, Bruce. I've gotten a little confused lately. Jerry. ____________________________ Jerry L. Archibald systemObjectivesIncorporated ____________________________

1 0

RE: [ENH] Bookmark for Scamper
by AKz＠phaidros.com 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

Ohhh... Sorry, here is the changeset! -----Original Message----- From: AKz(a)phaidros.com [mailto:AKz@phaidros.com] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:06 PM To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu Subject: [ENH] Bookmark for Scamper Hi Folks. I' ve creates a bookmark for Scamper, it' s not remarkable, but it work. Note: * add the URL to the bookmark * import the URLs (just IE-Favorites) into Scamper's bookmark Scamper will create Directory "Bookmark" and URL-files with extension "*.lin". I' ve not testing the bookmark ;-) PS: there ist a bookmark for InfoAgent (create by Thomas Mahler, i think). PSS: the TableMorph is not closed. wait.. Anoulak

1 0

[ENH] Bookmark for Scamper
by AKz＠phaidros.com 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

Hi Folks. I' ve creates a bookmark for Scamper, it' s not remarkable, but it work. Note: * add the URL to the bookmark * import the URLs (just IE-Favorites) into Scamper's bookmark Scamper will create Directory "Bookmark" and URL-files with extension "*.lin". I' ve not testing the bookmark ;-) PS: there ist a bookmark for InfoAgent (create by Thomas Mahler, i think). PSS: the TableMorph is not closed. wait.. Anoulak

1 0

Re: Updates added to 2.9
by Bruce ONeel 29 Jun '00

29 Jun '00

Hi, The lastest packaged version 2.7. Too the best of my knowledge, 2.8 is currently in beta and 2.9 is in alpha. I've built a 2.8 Mac package and there is a 2.8 Windows vm on the FTP site. cheers bruce JArchibald(a)aol.com wrote: > => 6/28/00 7:24:56 PM EDT, arning(a)charm.net => > << It would probably take a bit of the load off SqC if people more regularly > indicated which release(s) they know their change is good for. >> > > Bob, > > What is the 'function' of 2.8 as opposed to 2.9? Also, the latest "packaged" > version is still 2.7, is that right? > > Jerry. > ____________________________ > > Jerry L. Archibald > systemObjectivesIncorporated > ____________________________

1 0

← Newer
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
...
69
Older →

Jump to page: