Squeak-dev September 1998

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

108 participants
197 discussions

Re: CrLfFileStream as default?
by R. A. Harmon 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

At 07:11 PM 9/24/98 -0500, Dwight Hughes wrote: >I would also like to see it handle pathological files -- I seem to run >into a number of source files that have (for example) LF in one part, CR >in another, CRLF in another, and, just for fun, mutants like LFCRLF, >CRLFLF, CRLFCR, and CRCRLF sprinkled here and there. Perhaps >CrLfFileStream should simply chomp all of the above combinations into a >single CR on a read (which seems to be the "right thing" in most cases >I've seen), and only bother with line end conventions when filing out. > >I guess I'm wondering if this would be useful to others or if I'm just >lucky. [snip] Because I was using Text objects extensively, a month or so back I installed and used CrLfFileStream and had the same experience with pathological files. I spent some time trying change it to produce a carriage return for line termination internally from any line termination combinations read, and a platform dependent line termination externally. I kept running into small difficulties such as style run arrays base on the string length breaking, the position question, and others. The fixes were multiplying exponentially it seemed. I look at the problem from the prospective of the entire Stream hierarchy, but noticed that the hierarchy seemed to have grow incrementally with out an over-arching partition of responsibility and behavior, mostly due to no ExternalStream class. This was turning into a large project that I didn't want to deal with in the middle of the ANSI stuff project. So I set it aside for later as one of 5,678 other projects. I think it would be worth while to discuss if we were to rewrite Squeak from scratch and add the functionality of the current Stream hierarchy, what would the new Stream hierarchy be. I think it would be especially important for those who authored major pieces to contribute their design tradeoffs and where they think they pieces would fit. I think this would allow a graceful migration of behavior to the appropriate class, and reduce some of the duplication, anomalies and inconsistencies. I would be very interested in an analysis of the current Stream structure and the process of designing a new one. I have been trying for about a year now to move up process from coding to design and analysis, but it's been a lot of the "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember your purpose was to drain the swamp" syndrome. I also wondered if any college CS departments gave a course that took a group of students that have completed the design and analysis courses, and dropped them into an existing real application with all its legacy problems to design a major enhancement. The analysis of the current Squeak Stream hierarchy might prove to be a useful project for some instructor to assign his design and analysis class. I took this course in the school of hard knocks as a programmer on mainframes who was asked to design a new application system. I had no clue how to do it. I think a lot of folks learned design by doing it when promoted to System Analyst from Programmer. If you were successful, you were promoted to something else. If you failed, you did another design. -- Richard A. Harmon "The only good zombie is a dead zombie" harmonra(a)webname.com E. G. McCarthy

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Re: nil or #nil?
by R. A. Harmon 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

At 07:11 PM 9/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >"R. A. Harmon" <harmonra(a)webname.com> wrote: > >> I feel like I'm chasing a mirage that keeps disappearing just as I'm about >> to grasp it. [snip] >> Is there any way to build the future on top of a compatible Squeak >> Smalltalk? If the future vision fulfills its promise, I think (naive hope?) >> other Smalltalk dialects will adopt it. [snip] >Who says there has to be just one Squeak-based Smalltalk? Even if the Disney team >goes way too far into the blue with future versions of Squeak, there are plenty of >smart enough people in the world who could modify Squeak 2.2 to be ANSI compliant. Ah, it's in "Smalltalk - The Language and its Implementation", page 42 (just joking -- and an old one at that). You're right. And I do greatly appreciate the considerable body of talent and expertise outside of Disney. Maybe I'm just getting old, pessimistic, and really grumpy. Why when I was a kid, we didn't even have gravity yet. I had to walk 42 miles each way to school. With a cow under each arm so they wouldn't float away. And I walked home for lunch. Which was dirt, but only when we got rich enough to afford dirt! Which was invented when I was in the third grade. And third grade was the best 6 years of my life . . . . Thanks for reminding me of all the talent. -- Richard A. Harmon "The only good zombie is a dead zombie" harmonra(a)webname.com E. G. McCarthy

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Re: nil or #nil?
by R. A. Harmon 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

At 09:40 AM 9/21/98 -0500, Tim Olson wrote: [snip] >raises the larger question of Pink plane vs. Blue plane. Dan Ingalls >wrote about this "pull" between the Pink and Blue planes in October of >'97; here are some exerpts: > >---- >There are two strong forces at work in the Squeak team, which are often >in opposition. [snip] >These have most recently been >articulated in Alan's allusion to Toffler's metaphor of progress in the >pink (incremental improvement) plane and the blue (paradigm shift) plane. > >The forces in the pink plane have to do with making an ever-better >Smalltalk-80 system that can serve a wide spectrum of research and >academic needs, while leveraging off the large body of ST-80 >documentation, existing code archives, and synergy with high-performance >industrial ST-80 systems. In this plane Squeak's high level of >compatibility with the ST-80 language (and even with the MVC display >architecture) is a plus, [snip] >The forces in the blue plane have to do with a completely different >graphics model, evolution of the language model, and hopefully an even >simpler yet more powerful language kernel. [snip] >To best understand the "blue" pulls within the Squeak group, you need to >understand what we're after. Our number one commitment is to an >exquisite personal comuputing environment. Imagine a system as immediate >and tactile as a sketch pad, in which you can effortlessly mingle >writing, drawing, painting, and all of the structured leverage of >computer science. Moverover imagine that every aspect of that system is >described in itself and equally amenable to examination and composition. >Perhaps this system also extends out over the internet, including and >leveraging off the work of others. You get the idea -- it's the Holy >Grail of computer science. All and everything. So if some new approach >comes along that takes us closer to that ideal, but at the cost of a >break with ST-80 tradition, we will probably take the new approach. >---- > >So the stated goals of Squeak (from "Squeak Central's" viewpoint, at >least) do not include 100% compatibility with other Smalltalks; in the >future there will likely be larger divergences between Squeak and the >ANSI Smalltalk standard. > > >To summarize from the "Pink Plane" and "Blue Plane" perspectives: > >The "Pink Plane" fix would be to adopt the ANSI standard in this case, >and have the reserved identifiers 'nil', 'true', and 'false' treated >specially in literal array creation. > >Some of the proposed "Blue Plane" fixes are: [snip] I am truly and cruelly torn between having a free, user-supported, reasonably compliant Smalltalk to leverage off the tools all ready available and a way to exchange code between dialects, and having an exquisite personal computing environment that is absolutely required to be able to handle the ocean of information available. I love the vision of the future. No, I lust in my heart for it! But I get this sinking feeling. I started learning Smalltalk with ST/V DOS because it was (I think) US $50 and I could at a reasonable cost see what this object stuff was all about. ST/V for Windows let me do real applications for (I think) US $250 -- then poof, it's an orphan. Most of the high powered Smalltalkers on comp.lang.smalltalk are working with VisualWorks or Visual Age -- both of which I can't afford. The folks on the news group generously answer questions on SE, but over the last year I think the SE questions and replies have dwindled. Maybe the high powered folks don't have SE readily to hand or maybe they haven't used it in a while and don't as quickly respond. VisualWorks NC is available, but -- no disrespect intended -- I just don't feel in my gut that it is a reliable option long term. VWNC is out there now but is it just tactic for the moment. I think Dolphin Smalltalk is terrific and looks very good as a long term option. But If they don't succeed and Squeak goes off in to the future that can't be move to another dialect, I'm left with two more orphans. I feel like I'm chasing a mirage that keeps disappearing just as I'm about to grasp it. And I wonder what free or super-cheap Smalltalk the seed crop of new Smalltalkers are going use to peek into object stuff, or get the rudimentary skills by hacking up their own applications at home. Is there any way to build the future on top of a compatible Squeak Smalltalk? If the future vision fulfills its promise, I think (naive hope?) other Smalltalk dialects will adopt it. I want the future and I want portability. Anybody have the email address of the Language Fairie that handles the granting of diametrically opposed wishes? -- Richard A. Harmon "The only good zombie is a dead zombie" harmonra(a)webname.com E. G. McCarthy

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Sound problem in Squeak 2.2
by Georg Gollmann 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

Sounds do not play properly anymore. While 2.1 is fine in 2.2 sounds are choppy on my PowerMac G3/266. Anybody else hearing this (try "AbstractSound scaleTest play") ? Georg ---- Dipl.Ing. Georg Gollmann TU-Wien, EDV-Zentrum phon:(+43-1) 58801 - 5848 fax: (+43-1) 587 42 11 mail:gollmann@edvz.tuwien.ac.at http://macos.tuwien.ac.at/Gollmann.html

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Re: Squeak Version 2.2 released
by Kevin Fisher 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

Whups...I've already run into a few problems! I'm using the 2.1 Squeak.exe (under Windoze NT) and running the newly-downloaded Squeak2.2.image/changes files. If I highlight some text it gets totally obscured...the highlight and the text colour are the same colour. Same goes for the root menu popup. In a Morphic world there are strange areas near the corners that seem to attract window droppings.. This doesn't happen under X11/Linux, however, running the 2.1 interpreter and the 2.2 image. Also, the PWS doesn't seem to want to start (on the 2.2 image running the Win32 2.1 Squeak.exe interp). In fact, after doing the PWS initialize on a fresh server folder Squeak dies...I have a crash.dmp handy if anyone wants it. I get the feeling the VM exe I'm using isn't too healthy...I'm going to try setting up a SWiki under Linux and see what happens. Oh and can someone clear up a long-standing mystery with me: Directory delimination on differing operating systems! For example, when setting up the Server Directory in the PWS should I be using 'C:\squeak\Server' or 'C:$\squeak$\Server'? Likewise for UNIX, I guess, substituting \ with /... The FileStream class 'automatically' figures things out, right (through StandardFileStream or CrLfFileStream)? (I hope I didn't do anything boneheaded here...)

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Re: Squeak Version 2.2 released
by stp＠limbo.create.ucsb.edu 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

....I'm out of town this week, but will place a set of unpacked files on the CREATE ftp site as soon as I return (Friday PM). stp _ Stephen Travis Pope _ Center for Research in Electronic Art Technology (CREATE) _ Dept. of Music, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB) _ stp(a)create.ucsb.edu, http://www.create.ucsb.edu/~stp/

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Re: String/Symbol equality
by m3rabb＠stono.com 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

At 10:41 AM 9/24/98, Maloney wrote: >This issue comes up periodically. The difference results from >the fact a Symbol wants equalit to mean "identical objects" >whereas a String wants it to mean "collection-like objects with >the same contents". > >To my way of thinking, the receiving object really *should* get >to choose its own meaning for the "=" message, just as the >it can decide what "+" or any other message means. >Thus, although the asymmetry of "=" is surprising when you >first run into it, I think it ends of making perfect sense >when you think about it from the message passing perspective. > > -- John I hear ya John, but I was reading ye old ANSI standard... --Maurice 5.3.1.1 Message: = comparand Synopsis Object equivalence test. Definition: <Object> This message tests whether the receiver and the comparand are equivalent objects at the time the message is processed. Return true if the receiver is equivalent to comparand. Otherwise return false. The meaning of "equivalent" cannot be precisely defined but the intent is that two objects are considered equivalent if they can be used interchangeably. Conforming protocols may choose to more precisely define the meaning of "equivalent". The value of receiver = comparand is true if and only if the value of comparand = receiver would also be true. If the value of receiver = comparand is true then the receiver and comparand must have equivalent hash values. Or more formally: receiver = comparand Þ receiver hash = comparand hash The equivalence of objects need not be temporally invariant. Two independent invocations of #= with the same receiver and operand objects may not always yield the same results. Note that a collection that uses #= to discriminate objects may only reliably store objects whose hash values do not change while the objects are contained in the collection. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maurice Rabb 773.281.6003 Stono Technologies, LLC Chicago, USA

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Re: Toward a great Mini Squeak for PDA's
by Dan Shafer 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

Dan Ingalls wrote: > > >Rejuvenated support for shrinking the Squeak system (see Image Size). > > Back in Squeak 1.2 we had an image that provided a complete development environement (browser, debugger, fileList, compiler, full graphics, etc) in about 650k. > > I have succeeded in reproducing such an image from 2.2. It ends up being around 790k because it includes several things that were not there in 1.2, and also, I have not spent any time being really careful about identifying unnecessary stuff in that image - YET. I know we could get back to 650k, and maybe less without a lot of trouble. > > My goal would be to have a truly great lean Squeak that can be produced from our latest release in 10 minutes, together with appropriate interpreters, ready for Microsoft's WinCE II ("Jupiter" (doesn't sound small to me ;-)) announcement in October, and all those PDA's that we'll be looking at for Christmas. > > I am proposing to release a Mini Squeak of the Week until we are done that everyone can try out and critique. The form this would take is a few updates, and a do-it that you can execute to make the latest Mini squeak. When we get something good, I will post a Mini2.2 image on UIUC. > > WHAT I WOULD LIKE FROM SQUEAKVILLE: > > First of all I would like to encourage anyone who is now working on it, or who has an inclination, to prepare interpreters for one or two existing WinCE machines. It should not be that hard to bring Blair McGlashen's 1.2 VM up to date for the Cassiopeia and HP machines. Then it would be nice to prepare for a couple of the new Jupiter machines as well. > > Secondly, I would like some folks to use and abuse the latest Mini version, find the places where it gets errors due to missing parts, and submit fixes that either remove the options, or work around the missing parts. It would be useful also to peruse the system and comment on what is of no use in a PDA, and what should be added, or at least not deleted. > > I will periodically fold those suggestions together with an increasingly aggressive removal procedure, and iterate the process for a few weeks > > So, if you are interested in working with me for a couple of weeks, please respond privately, and we'll move this along. You can get a taste of it right now by fetching 2.2, making a copy of the image, and executing... > Smalltalk discardVMConstruction. > Smalltalk discardSoundSynthesis. > Smalltalk discardOddsAndEnds. > Smalltalk discardNetworking. > Smalltalk discardMorphic. > Smalltalk majorShrink. > Smalltalk abandonSources. > This should produce the first Mini Squeak of the Week for you to play with. Then, if you have comments or suggestions, send them along, and we will be on our way. > > Thanks > - Dan Probably I'm just showing my ignorance here, but the above lines don't execute in my Squeak 2.2 beta image on a Mac. I keep getting "unknown selector" errors. (Actually, the second one did work.) -- |=================================================| | Dan Shafer, Executive Technical Producer and | | Editor-at-Large, CNET's Site for Site Builders | | dshafer(a)cnet.com - Preferred Method of Contact | | http://www.builder.com - Main Builder Site | |http://buzz.builder.com - Online Discussion Area | |http://web.builder.com - Semi-Annual Conferences| | Save the Dates - Dec. 7-9, 1998, Web.Builder | | New Orleans Strikes Again! | |=================================================|

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Celeste buglet
by Bijan Parsia 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

First, I want to say that Squeak 2.2 is neat. Second, (and I should have mentioned this earlier, but I forgot), the Celeste menu command "set POP username" doesn't work. Inspecting the relevant menu item morph reveals that "arguments" is set to #(setPopUSername a PluggableListMorphByItem(1152) ) ^^ Should be 'Us'. Cheers, Bijan Parsia, not *quite* yet using Celeste ;)

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Re: Squeak Version 2.2 released
by Lex Spoon 25 Sep '98

25 Sep '98

I believe this is dependent on the application, but usually it uses the OS conventions. URLs are a notable exception: a file: URL currently forces the character to be $/ (though it just might possibly work if you used the local convention...). By the way, Squeak on UNIX doesn't do any auto-correction if you use \ or : in filenames, because those are valid characters for a file to have. The fact that most Windows systems auto-correct when you use a /, even outside of Squeak, is because: 1) Most Windows things are written in C or C++, and C originated on Unix, and so people would like to compile the examples out of their C books. 2) You have to escape \'s in C strings, which makes the paths harder to read. "/dos/system.ini" versus "\\dos\\system.ini". 3) It's really easy to implement. Similarly, files in Windows tend to convert from CRLF to LF line endings in their default mode; this lets Unix programs be recompiled without much effort, and it's nicer anyways just having a single newline character to deal with instead of a pair of characters. For instance, what do you do if you see just a LF or CR by itself? Lex Kevin Fisher <kfisher(a)rim.net> wrote: > > Oh and can someone clear up a long-standing mystery with me: Directory > delimination on differing operating systems! For example, when setting up the > Server Directory in the PWS should I be using 'C:\squeak\Server' or > 'C:$\squeak$\Server'? Likewise for UNIX, I guess, substituting \ with /... > The FileStream class 'automatically' figures things out, right (through > StandardFileStream or CrLfFileStream)? >

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