Q-What do you use Squeak for?
Genetic algorithms, scripting (a LOT), experimenting, Euler Project code, a chess engine, random data generator, cleaning up/transforming crappy data from databases and/or other sources, keeping up with new ideas in Smalltalk.
Q-If you don't use Squeak, why not?
Lack of a decent GUI builder. And unstability of the base code and/or difficulty to find code/frameworks/applications that load in-one-shot without me having to debug in the first place!
Q-If you used Squeak in the past and don't now, what pulled you away?
Lack of a decent GUI builder. Lack of a decent Windows support.
Q-What does Squeak lack that you think might make you use it for 'regular' development?
A decent GUI builder. And a central code repository that wouldn't make loading code a crazy adventure every time.
If I want Python code, all I have to do is to visit PyPI. If I want Ruby code, all I have to do is to visit RubyGems. If I want R code, all I have to do is to visit CRAN R. If I want VisualWorks code, all I have to do is to visit Cincom Public Repository...
Now, if I want Squeak code, I have to visit SqueakSource, SmalltalkHub, GitHub, SqueakSource3, SqueakMap and use a GitHub tool, or file in some code, or use the package manager, or use Monticello, or use the Package Universe browser, or Gofer, or the SqueakMap Catalog Browser, or... Well, you get the picture. Besides, once I've found what I was looking for, often times the code doesn't load because it was ported to Pharo... or it's never been updated to be compatible with the current Squeak version.
Another tool Squeak needs is an image packager (à la VW or VAST or Dolphin) that works! NOT scripts!
Q-What things are too hard or annoying to do?
Building GUIs, again. Package an image to deploy. Keeping up with the base code. Who need traits, really? Who uses traits, really? It would have been more beneficial to invest that time/effort into cleaning up morphic, modularizing the code, create a GUI builder and an Image Stripper !
Q-What would you like to be able to use Squeak for?
Everything. I've always been a Smalltalker!
----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
Hi Benoit,
you're the second one to talk about genetic algorithms in Squeak.
Care for some email exchange about the topic?
Cheers,
Herbert
Am 07.03.2018 um 13:48 schrieb Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev:
Q-What do you use Squeak for?
Genetic algorithms, scripting (a LOT), experimenting, Euler Project code, a chess engine, random data generator, cleaning up/transforming crappy data from databases and/or other sources, keeping up with new ideas in Smalltalk.
Q-If you don't use Squeak, why not?
Lack of a decent GUI builder. And unstability of the base code and/or difficulty to find code/frameworks/applications that load in-one-shot without me having to debug in the first place!
Q-If you used Squeak in the past and don't now, what pulled you away?
Lack of a decent GUI builder. Lack of a decent Windows support.
Q-What does Squeak lack that you think might make you use it for 'regular' development?
A decent GUI builder. And a central code repository that wouldn't make loading code a crazy adventure every time.
If I want Python code, all I have to do is to visit PyPI. If I want Ruby code, all I have to do is to visit RubyGems. If I want R code, all I have to do is to visit CRAN R. If I want VisualWorks code, all I have to do is to visit Cincom Public Repository...
Now, if I want Squeak code, I have to visit SqueakSource, SmalltalkHub, GitHub, SqueakSource3, SqueakMap and use a GitHub tool, or file in some code, or use the package manager, or use Monticello, or use the Package Universe browser, or Gofer, or the SqueakMap Catalog Browser, or... Well, you get the picture. Besides, once I've found what I was looking for, often times the code doesn't load because it was ported to Pharo... or it's never been updated to be compatible with the current Squeak version.
Another tool Squeak needs is an image packager (à la VW or VAST or Dolphin) that works! NOT scripts!
Q-What things are too hard or annoying to do?
Building GUIs, again. Package an image to deploy. Keeping up with the base code. Who need traits, really? Who uses traits, really? It would have been more beneficial to invest that time/effort into cleaning up morphic, modularizing the code, create a GUI builder and an Image Stripper !
Q-What would you like to be able to use Squeak for?
Everything. I've always been a Smalltalker!
Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
Hi Benoit:
I full agree with most of your opinions about the things to improve in Squeak.
About the "decent" UI builder, once more time, I will mention https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/...
Never understood why was not adopted. Is better than nothing what is that we have now.
My 0,02.
Saludos / Regards, Germán Arduino @garduino
2018-03-07 9:48 GMT-03:00 Benoit St-Jean via Squeak-dev < squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org>:
Q-What do you use Squeak for?
Genetic algorithms, scripting (a LOT), experimenting, Euler Project code, a chess engine, random data generator, cleaning up/transforming crappy data from databases and/or other sources, keeping up with new ideas in Smalltalk.
Q-If you don't use Squeak, why not?
Lack of a decent GUI builder. And unstability of the base code and/or difficulty to find code/frameworks/applications that load in-one-shot without me having to debug in the first place!
Q-If you used Squeak in the past and don't now, what pulled you away?
Lack of a decent GUI builder. Lack of a decent Windows support.
Q-What does Squeak lack that you think might make you use it for 'regular' development?
A decent GUI builder. And a central code repository that wouldn't make loading code a crazy adventure every time.
If I want Python code, all I have to do is to visit PyPI. If I want Ruby code, all I have to do is to visit RubyGems. If I want R code, all I have to do is to visit CRAN R. If I want VisualWorks code, all I have to do is to visit Cincom Public Repository...
Now, if I want Squeak code, I have to visit SqueakSource, SmalltalkHub, GitHub, SqueakSource3, SqueakMap and use a GitHub tool, or file in some code, or use the package manager, or use Monticello, or use the Package Universe browser, or Gofer, or the SqueakMap Catalog Browser, or... Well, you get the picture. Besides, once I've found what I was looking for, often times the code doesn't load because it was ported to Pharo... or it's never been updated to be compatible with the current Squeak version.
Another tool Squeak needs is an image packager (à la VW or VAST or Dolphin) that works! NOT scripts!
Q-What things are too hard or annoying to do?
Building GUIs, again. Package an image to deploy. Keeping up with the base code. Who need traits, really? Who uses traits, really? It would have been more beneficial to invest that time/effort into cleaning up morphic, modularizing the code, create a GUI builder and an Image Stripper !
Q-What would you like to be able to use Squeak for?
Everything. I've always been a Smalltalker!
Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
These responses are really interesting. More!
I suppose I ought to chime in too
What do you use Squeak for? Making a living, for the last (2018-1996) years, primarily Squeak-on-ARM. VM developments, ports to various ARM devices. System level code to make stuff work for all the stuff above it. Applications for various proprietary purposes and projects like Sophie and of course, Scratch-for-Pi. Not yet a profit-making enterprise is Squeak for IOT doohickeys. My MQTT client is in use for a couple of interesting projects.
What does Squeak lack? GUI tool(s). Documentation & tools for it. Oh, *so* much lack of documentation. Host windows. Oh, wait, we did those 14 years ago and no one has bothered to make use of them. Support for cluster/parallel computing stuff.
What would I like to be able to use Squeak for? Everything.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Why use one word when two polysyllabic agglomerates will do?
timrowledge wrote
What would I like to be able to use Squeak for? Everything.
Amen to that!
[rant, but hopefully not too OT] I recently forayed into the bash world to get CI up and running for my Smalltalk projects - certainly one of the circles of hell! Where one would simply write a simple, understandable code snippet in Smalltalk, in the bash world, you have to know insanely-irrelevant-to-the-task-at-hand things like "alphabetize the arguments and put each one on a separate line with a command line break (`… /`) so that git diffs will be easier to compare manually - W.T.H.!! I got so frustrated that I stopped and took a half a day to wrap the "logic" in Smalltalk - phewww much better. Reading the docs, which had no sense of irony or even awareness that they were seemingly spending most of their time and energy on accidental complexity instead of performing useful work, I thought of Alan Kay's statement (heavily paraphrased) that many programmers relish in systems in direct proportion to their obtuseness because they get satisfaction of being the only person on earth to be able to actually make the thing work! [/rant, but hopefully not too OT]
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Dev-f45488.html
On 8 March 2018 at 06:15, Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com wrote:
timrowledge wrote
What would I like to be able to use Squeak for? Everything.
Amen to that!
[rant, but hopefully not too OT] I recently forayed into the bash world to get CI up and running for my Smalltalk projects - certainly one of the circles of hell! Where one would simply write a simple, understandable code snippet in Smalltalk, in the bash world, you have to know insanely-irrelevant-to-the-task-at-hand things like "alphabetize the arguments and put each one on a separate line with a command line break (`… /`) so that git diffs will be easier to compare manually - W.T.H.!! I got so frustrated that I stopped and took a half a day to wrap the "logic" in Smalltalk - phewww much better. Reading the docs, which had no sense of irony or even awareness that they were seemingly spending most of their time and energy on accidental complexity instead of performing useful work, I thought of Alan Kay's statement (heavily paraphrased) that many programmers relish in systems in direct proportion to their obtuseness because they get satisfaction of being the only person on earth to be able to actually make the thing work! [/rant, but hopefully not too OT]
I used to be really annoyed by people demanding that "irrelevant" things be alphabetized - usings clauses in C#, in particular. Except that if you alphabetize things, you drastically reduce the chances of a merge conflict.
I don't see how Bash or Squeak could save you from that - Monticello is not clever enough, IIRC, to handle two edits to the same line of a method.
But otherwise, I... would avoid Bash as much as possible. It's not the nicest language in the world in which to write anything. (Hence why all my CI work in Squeak was in Ruby, which is much nicer to work with than Bash.)
frank
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Dev-f45488.html
Frank Shearar-3 wrote
I don't see how… Squeak could save you from that
install: packageCollection | cmdTemplate sortedPackages packageLines command comment | comment := '- Main reference: https://docs.docker.com/develop/develop-images/dockerfile_best-practices/#ru... - We chose to omit `--no-install-recommends` because the (small?) size difference didn''t seem to be worth the potential problems (see https://askubuntu.com/questions/65081/what-are-the-implications-of-no-instal...) - `-y` isn''t needed because it is implied in `-qq` (see https://askubuntu.com/questions/258219/how-do-i-make-apt-get-install-less-no...).'. cmdTemplate := 'apt-get -qq update && apt-get -qq install \ {packages} && rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*'.
"Sort per https://docs.docker.com/develop/develop-images/dockerfile_best-practices/#so..." sortedPackages := packageCollection sort. packageLines := String streamContents: [ :s | sortedPackages do: [ :e | s nextPutAll: e; nextPutAll: ' ' ] separatedBy: [ s lf; space; space; space; space ] ]. command := cmdTemplate format: { #packages -> packageLines } asDictionary. ^ self new command: command; comment: comment; yourself
You could say I just kicked the can down the road because the alphabetization problem still exists inside Smalltalk, but since it's turtles all the way down, if it really bothered me I could hack together a little GUI to edit the list!
----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Dev-f45488.html
Yes, this is a useful reminder and thank you Sean for the illustrative code snippets.
Squeak scripts in a workspace may be used to create bash scripts! For example also do create a Makefile be used to build a web app. ( http://www.olioapps.com/blog/the-lost-art-of-the-makefile/ )
The Unix commands may be stored as strings in class methods and manipulated / classified in a user friendly way with the browsers.
Then they are combined into a comprehensive bash script.
On 3/9/18, Sean P. DeNigris sean@clipperadams.com wrote:
Frank Shearar-3 wrote
I don't see how… Squeak could save you from that
install: packageCollection | cmdTemplate sortedPackages packageLines command comment | comment := '- Main reference: https://docs.docker.com/develop/develop-images/dockerfile_best-practices/#ru...
- We chose to omit `--no-install-recommends` because the (small?) size
difference didn''t seem to be worth the potential problems (see https://askubuntu.com/questions/65081/what-are-the-implications-of-no-instal...)
- `-y` isn''t needed because it is implied in `-qq` (see
https://askubuntu.com/questions/258219/how-do-i-make-apt-get-install-less-no...).'.
cmdTemplate := 'apt-get -qq update && apt-get -qq install \ {packages} && rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*'.
"Sort per https://docs.docker.com/develop/develop-images/dockerfile_best-practices/#so..." sortedPackages := packageCollection sort.
packageLines := String streamContents: [ :s | sortedPackages do: [ :e | s nextPutAll: e; nextPutAll: ' ' ] separatedBy: [ s lf; space; space; space; space ] ]. command := cmdTemplate format: { #packages -> packageLines } asDictionary. ^ self new command: command; comment: comment; yourself
You could say I just kicked the can down the road because the alphabetization problem still exists inside Smalltalk, but since it's turtles all the way down, if it really bothered me I could hack together a little GUI to edit the list!
Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Dev-f45488.html
On 07-03-2018, at 2:46 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
These responses are really interesting. More!
Still more! Keep telling us all what you think.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim He who hesitates is probably right.
I finally got around to precising the response to the survey and sticking them on a swiki page. Well, some of them - the 'what annoys you' part still needs doing. See http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1315 "Squeak user survey 2018" and feel free to add more stuff and annotate and comment and start writing code to improve things or implement some of the ideas.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: STOP: No Op
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 12:29:52PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
I finally got around to precising the response to the survey and sticking them on a swiki page. Well, some of them - the 'what annoys you' part still needs doing. See http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1315 "Squeak user survey 2018" and feel free to add more stuff and annotate and comment and start writing code to improve things or implement some of the ideas.
Thanks Tim, it's really nice to have this summarized on the wiki. And it seems like not a bad way to help answer the question "what is Squeak" for someone who has never seen it before.
Dave
On 31-07-2018, at 8:52 PM, Xin Wang dramwang@163.com wrote:
Not sure if it is only me, but when opening https://wiki.squeak.org/, I get a Nextcloud page, with following message:
Access through untrusted domain ...
https://planet.squeak.org/ also have this problem.
No, that is affecting me too. A new thing today so far as i can tell.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim No program done by an undergrad will work after she graduates.
Hi all
On 01.08.2018, at 05:52, Xin Wang dramwang@163.com wrote:
On 2018/8/1 3:29, tim Rowledge wrote:
I finally got around to precising the response to the survey and sticking them on a swiki page. Well, some of them - the 'what annoys you' part still needs doing. See http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1315 "Squeak user survey 2018" and feel free to add more stuff and annotate and comment and start writing code to improve things or implement some of the ideas.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: STOP: No Op
Not sure if it is only me, but when opening https://wiki.squeak.org/, I get a Nextcloud page, with following message:
Access through untrusted domain ...
https://planet.squeak.org/ also have this problem.
Jeah, that's because we do not have the httpS setup completely done. It should work without the S, just plain ol' http.
Best regards -Tobias
Regards, Xin Wang
On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 8:29 AM Tobias Pape Das.Linux@gmx.de wrote:
Hi all
On 01.08.2018, at 05:52, Xin Wang dramwang@163.com wrote:
On 2018/8/1 3:29, tim Rowledge wrote:
I finally got around to precising the response to the survey and
sticking them on a swiki page. Well, some of them - the 'what annoys you' part still needs doing. See http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1315
"Squeak user survey 2018" and feel free to add more stuff and annotate
and comment and start writing code to improve things or implement some of the ideas.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: STOP: No Op
Not sure if it is only me, but when opening https://wiki.squeak.org/, I
get a Nextcloud page, with following message:
Access through untrusted domain ...
https://planet.squeak.org/ also have this problem.
Jeah, that's because we do not have the httpS setup completely done. It should work without the S, just plain ol' http.
wiki and planet should now be accessible through HTTPS, please try again. :)
Cheers, Fabio
Best regards -Tobias
Regards, Xin Wang
On 01-08-2018, at 6:36 AM, Fabio Niephaus lists@fniephaus.com wrote:
wiki and planet should now be accessible through HTTPS, please try again. :)
Seem to work ok for me this morning. Thanks for sorting that out.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Any Sufficiently Advanced Incompetence Is Indistinguishable From Malice
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Benoit St-Jean -
David T. Lewis -
Fabio Niephaus -
Frank Shearar -
Germán Arduino -
H. Hirzel -
Herbert König -
Sean P. DeNigris -
tim Rowledge -
Tobias Pape -
Xin Wang