Squeak-dev May 2008

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

141 participants
174 discussions

Unload Traits script
by Jerome Peace 13 May '08

13 May '08

[squeak-dev] [ANN] Unload Traits script *** >Matthew Fulmer tapplek at gmail.com >Sat May 10 19:18:47 UTC 2008 > > >I wrote a script that removes traits from a 3.9 or 3.8 image: >http://installer.pbwiki.org/UnloadTraits > >In an image with Installer (preferably LPF), do: >Installer install: 'UnloadTraits' ><...> Ok. Then what does this give you? If you had such an image could you use it as a basis for development? How would you update it? How could you revert an update to it? Basically what I am asking is could this be squeak 4.0 and a basis for future development? Or would the image produced just be a curiosity that could not be developed further. This is different from the question of should it be. That also is important to answer. But the "should" question is a political one. I'm just looking for the technical answer to the "could" questions. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jeorme Peace P.S. How is work on DeltaStreams coming? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

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Responses to IRC Questions arising
by Keith Hodges 12 May '08

12 May '08

I am writing this note to answer some questions/issues that were expressed in todays irc logs about issues pertaining to installer and LPF etc. ========= Item 1 ========= kencausey: yeah, that's one solution to an explosion of custom images, custom scripts instead [20:35] matthewf: is lots of custom images bad? [20:36] matthewf: I think not [20:36] kencausey: It's bad for me trying to help people who come here asking questions. ... kencausey: matthewf: yes of course, but it's a pain in the *** to have to try to replicate that to answer a single question. [20:45] My response: I have started a "bzr" repository with 160Gb of space that can/will be used to manage images what have been built with these custom scripts. The automatic building tool "Bob" has yet to be written, but will be based upon Sake. So when a user is reading a particular "Squeak By Example" edition or (insert favourite tutorial here) this may be associated with a specific "check out" from the repository. Those attempting to answer beginners questions in any script-built-image will be able to download the same image that the beginner is using via simple bzr checkout. ========= Item 2 ========= [10:59] edgardec: So, release team now was myself, jerome, ken and matthew Do I get credit for causing all of this problem in the first place? ========= Item 3 ========= snake_mountain: I am uisng Pidgin for IRC. How's about IRCe? Will not install. snake_mountain: Ah, oh. "Error: Unable to find function address>". snake_mountain: ExternalWebBrowserUnizMozilla(Object)>>error. .... edgardec: I bet you use Universes for having IRC installed ? [13:30] snake_mountain: It was recommended last night right here on irc edgardec: Maybe who build the package have some more in mind, but the fact is you DON'T need any external [13:32] My response: So here we have a package in universes which needs fixing. I think the 3.10 universe has been frozen, perhaps the maintainer nominated in the universes browser could take a look at it. However this is where Sake/Packages comes into its own. Sake/Packages has the same universes package definitions, but encoded as methods on a Class. Because it is a class you can override these methods to your hearts content in the subclass, in order to provide something with does work for you. If it works you can then post the mcz back onto squeaksource for others to take advantage of the new improved definition. Anyone can edit these packages on squeaksource so the whole enterprise is to be organic and socially policed, I have proposed packages@lists@squeakfoundation.org as a forum for this, however the current owner is not responding to emails (Marcus D?). To whom it may concern, please could I volunteer to adopt that list? So... I have now done this, fixing the IRCe package definition in Packages-Squeak310 Installer sake addPackage: 'IRCe'; install. "should now work" Installer universe addPackage: 'IRCe'; install. "remains broken awaiting the maintainers attention" ========= Item 4 ========= wBryce: What's the list of fixes planned for 3.10.1? [14:54] The current list according to the LPF collection is here http://installer.pbwiki.com/MinorFixes-Squeak3:10 and here http://installer.pbwiki.com/MinorFixesUnstable-Squeak3:10 The later being the current candidate list includes many very minor items that could be safely included. (the images I personally use include all of these) ========== Item 5 ========== wBryce: edgardec, It may be worthwhile doing a quick 3.10.1 followed by a 3.10.2 with a longer UAT/gamma period. [15:03] edgardec: 3.10.2 ? .... [15:03] edgardec: I wish do 3.11 instead My response: At present I propose that 3.11 be assembled as LPF + Latest (MinorFixes, MajorFixes, PackageUpgrades) + Clean (remove more packages) i.e. generated by something like squeak squeak3.10-7159gamma http:://installer.pbwiki.com/f/LPF.st Installer do="Latest;Clean" SmalltalkImage save=squeak3.11a.image +quit Edgar, you have considerable experience of removing packages form the image, and it would be nice if you might help work on the "Clean" script so that it may be applied all versions of squeak 3.7 through to 3.10 etc, in order to help everyone to tighten the belts of their production images. How about it? ======== Item 6 ======== wBryce: edgardec, I'd suggest figuring out a more automated process of applying changes for 3.11. Even if it means you've got to be more fussy about how you accept changes. [15:10] wBryce: Also, what's the scope of the 3.11 release? Any big changes, or another maintenence release? My response: The brainstorm page that matthew and I are using for throwing ideas around is at: http://installer.pbwiki.com/311 you are welcome to comment and contribute there if you wish. [15:10] edgardec: wBryce: I agree, but how we automate mor ? My response: Since I have been working for more than 18 months on "automating this more", and we currently have a completely transparent automated process with Installer + LPF + installer wiki + mantis etc, what more automation could you possibly be asking for? I dont think it is possible for squeak to fix itself, there is nothing more that can possibly be automated so I am amazed by the question. Either that or I am completely missing the point somewhere? wBryce: Keith's got code to load Mantis issues. I wonder if that could be used to automatically update an image. [15:33] My response: indeed. wBryce: You'd want to make sure that the image building code was easy to unload before a final release. My Response: This is why Sake/Packages and Sake/Tasks are implemented as simple methods on a class. All you have to do to remove image building code is to remove the class. Part of the Sake/Packages design is to support the idea that the Sake/Packages package definitions be loaded temporarily for the purpose of building an image and disposed of prior to deployment. It can be loaded again on demand if needed. ======= Item 7 ======= kencausey: One thing I don't care for about Keith's solution is that it is easily hackable, so doing anything automatic with it, for general release, is not a good idea. .... kencausey: Well, it reads from web pages that are world writable, as simple as that My Response: A) installer.pbwiki.com is currently password protected, and can have any level of security you desire to make it non "hackable" B) Use another wiki with more watertight security, Installer is not hardwired to installer.pbwiki.com Bb) Use local files if you want to, we can mange these in any SCM, I dont think this would have much advantage over the wiki. C) Installer mantis scripts can protect themselves from people hacking fixes with new code by specifying a date. If the date doesn't match a warning is given. D) In theory you can download a zip archive of the whole site and use it locally E) If instead of Installer install: 'MinorFixes', you run Installer view: 'MinorFixes' you get a worksace with the entire script generated from the wiki. This can be executed as a doit or saved for use as a FileIn. F) installer.pbwiki.com is NOT intended to be the final release generating mechanism. It is a knowledge collection tool for collecting knowledge and fixes from the community and experimenting. There are two plans for generating the final release. Plan 1: Using DS, DS will record the progress of all the scripts, the DS can then be used to generate cs for update streams. Plan 2: Sake/MCTasks run after the scripts saving the whole image as mcz packages. The final golden master release image is generated from a fresh image by loading the mcz's (with atomic loading of course). ======= Item 8 ======= kencausey: Well, number one, Mantis issues have all sort of stuff attached to them [15:38] kencausey: Sometimes examples of what not to do [15:38] kencausey: So some human is going to have to designate what to test My Response: This is what Installer mantis does... it picks out the script placed on the bug report page, the script specifies the actual fix, and tests for that fix. Mantis users are able to write and adjust the contents of the script as much as they wish. kencausey: I could maybe even add something to Mantis to make it easier My Response: Its fine, its not perfect but it has been working most effectively for over a year. (If it aint broke...) The current system whereby user-notes are used for the Installer mantis script is a little tricky since one person cant edit a script posted by someone else. Currently this is handled by appending a new script. Would it be desirable/possible to have a mutually editable note for this purpose? ======= Item 9 ======= wBryce: I was just idlely speculating if there was any way to automate as much of the drudge work out of the release team's job. [15:42] kencausey: Personally I think that the drudge work is useful as it requires human interaction and opportunities for thought, examination of the issue, the code, etc. [15:42] kencausey: As it is bad code repeatedly slips through. [15:42] kencausey: How is that going to improve with further automation without more eyeballs? My Response: I was once a passenger in a car whose driver would insist on driving at 90 mph everywhere in the black mountains of Wales. His excuse being that the faster he went in the wrong direction the sooner he would realise that he was lost. Removing the drugery is the whole point of using LPF and Installer image building tools. With installer.wiki we have a framework which is A) Public B) Provides space for Documentation of design intent and design decisions C) Open to all interested parties D) Anyone can build the latest image and test it locally for their platform E) Anyone can dry-run their own variants and experiments as they wish. Using code snippets that are publically visible on http://installer.pbwiki.com lots of people can contribute to the release in a small way or a large way as appropriate for them. i.e. Lots more eyeballs. Take Nicolas Cellier, and look at all the tiny little contributions he has made to FixesUnstable. Its about harnessing the creativity of the community by creating opportunities to be inclusive, rather than defaulting to an exclusive team. The update stream is exclusive, being in the grip of a privileged few, so thats a non starter IMHO. Previous release teams though desiring to be inclusive have not succeeded as they might have wished. Here we are planning for inclusiveness, and we are including users of past images as well as present ones. If someone wants to take 3.11 work and migrate it to 3.7 the mechanism is there, now that we have a "Level Playing Field" to start with. ====== Item 10 ====== kencausey: The problem with relying on tests as it requires reasonable test coverage [15:43] kencausey: Which we are not even close to [15:43] kencausey: And I'm afraid the closer we get the more annoying testing is going to become My response: 14 months ago I wrote code for automated testing, this applied the "pareto principle" whereby 80% of the result is achievable with 20% of the effort. I did this by recording the time taken by each test case, and running the fastest tests first. This way 90%-95% of the tests run in less than 5mins. I cant remember the exact figures, but it was a significant win. This also highlights the slowest tests for improvement, or less frequent running. ====== Item 11 ====== wBryce: In my case, it would be worthwhile to have a build server that built a Exupery dev image then ran all tests. So I found out when something broke at the time, rather than when I next release. My Response: you can do this now* Write an Installer build script to build your image exupery.st #> squeak non-LPF-start.image http://installer.pbwiki.com/f/LPF.st Installer installUrl: 'file:/exupery.st' SmalltalkImage save=exupery.image TestReporter runAllSuites SmalltalkImage +quit *some of the Launcher code for running TestReporter from the command line has been lost and needs to be retrieved from earlier versions of Launcher ============= sorry its been a long one cheers Keith

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What do you expect to get from Duration>>seconds and Time>>seconds?
by Ken Causey 12 May '08

12 May '08

One of the issues reported against 3.10 is that 'Time now seconds' returns a fraction and not an integer as it did in 3.9 (and presumably before). It turns out the fact that it was an integer previously was an artifact of the fact that the clock did not provide sub-second precision. Now that it does it returns a fraction. All along the actual calculation of seconds was done in Duration>>seconds and since 2003 that calculation has taken nanoseconds into consideration and clearly would return a fraction if nanoseconds is non-zero. I think it's reasonable to get a fraction from Duration>>seconds since sub-second durations are not unusual. Maybe someone else expects to get a 0 in that case, if so please speak up. However what about Time>>seconds? The ANSI protocol specifies Duration>>seconds simply specifying that it returns a number, but there is no specification for Time>>seconds or DateAndTime>>seconds at all. It does however specify DateAndTime>>second though and again it only says 'number'. So it seems to be time to gather opinions. Ken

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HTTP Encoding and decoding
by Robert Krahn 12 May '08

12 May '08

Hi, the following expressions returns false in 3.9.1: ('mö:' encodeForHTTP unescapePercents) = 'mö:' although #unescapePercents should be the opposite from #encodeForHTTP (as stated in the method comment). I assume this is a bug? Best, Robert

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Threaded ODBC
by Rob Rothwell 12 May '08

12 May '08

Hello, I was just wondering if anyone knew what work would be required to provide a threaded ODBC connection in Squeak similar to what is available for VisualWorks or Smalltalk/X. The ability to not freeze the VM while running a query would be very useful for me, but I don't even know where to start. Or, is it a bigger issue than just ODBC, something buried deep within the VM and/or the FFI? Thanks, Rob

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Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions
by Ken G. Brown 12 May '08

12 May '08

See my previous message Sun, 11 May 2008 14:59:19 -0600 about this: I have posted my complete example migration script to <http://installer.pbwiki.com/Example%20migration%20script%20for%20sq3-10-715…> Call up the script and do a search for 'fix'. Ken G. Brown At 3:06 AM -0700 5/12/08, squeak-dev-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org apparently wrote: >Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:16:54 +0200 >From: stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >Message-ID: <73B9CE3E-E216-4EB9-BF99-5EEA9C4C667F(a)free.fr> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > >Hi ken > >which kind of fixes are you loading? > >On May 10, 2008, at 5:37 PM, Ken G. Brown wrote: > >> 15 mins to migrate everything from my 3.10dev8.04.1 working image to >> a fresh dev8.05.1 using my Installer script. >> This was mostly just waiting for downloads to occur and to answer ok >> to a few dialogs that pop up for certain changesets. >> >> This included installing almost everything from http://installer.pbwiki.com >> (LPF, fixes, packages, etc.), FFI, Balloon3D, VMMaker, restoring >> several Workspaces to their saved- to-file contents, reloading all >> my own work from my local Monticello repository, applying a few >> mantis fixes, loading several other packages from SqueakMap, >> Universes and SqueakSource and some other changesets from my loacal >> drive to make generating a VM happy. >> >> Thx! >> >> Ken G. Brown >> >>> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 18:12:29 +0200 >>> From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> >>> Subject: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions >>> To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" >>> <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org>, "Seaside - general >>> discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >>> Message-ID: >>> <6ac749c10805090912h6330e548y1ed030a48b96e98c(a)mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I've just uploaded new squeak-dev and squeak-web images based on >>> Squeak3.9.1-7075 and Squeak3.10-7159. >>> >>> Download: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1211 >>> >>> More information and download links: >>> http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev.html >>> >>> Changes in this version: >>> --------------------------- >>> >>> - Algernon has been included in the beta images >>> (http://news.squeak.org/2008/05/07/algernon-your-personal-assistant-for-sque… >>> ). >>> - Diff Tools have also been included in the beta images >>> (http://astares.blogspot.com/2008/04/diff-tools-for-squeak.html) >>> - Monticello 1.5 has been removed from the beta images because it >>> seems to cause some troubles. However, I would like to reintroduce it >>> as soon as people tell me it's now ok. >>> - Magritte and Pier have been updated in the web images >>> - OB-Enhancements saw a lot of bug fixes and new features (inclusion >>> of smart groups, double-click support on some items...) >>> - Lots of fixes for OB-Standard >>> - UIEnhancements has been updated >>> >> <snip> >> > >

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[ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions (2nd edition)
by Damien Cassou 12 May '08

12 May '08

Hi, I've just uploaded 4 new images which fix an annoying bug with the browser (http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7037). http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1211 -- Damien Cassou Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

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Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions
by Ken G. Brown 12 May '08

12 May '08

15 mins to migrate everything from my 3.10dev8.04.1 working image to a fresh dev8.05.1 using my Installer script. This was mostly just waiting for downloads to occur and to answer ok to a few dialogs that pop up for certain changesets. This included installing almost everything from http://installer.pbwiki.com (LPF, fixes, packages, etc.), FFI, Balloon3D, VMMaker, restoring several Workspaces to their saved- to-file contents, reloading all my own work from my local Monticello repository, applying a few mantis fixes, loading several other packages from SqueakMap, Universes and SqueakSource and some other changesets from my loacal drive to make generating a VM happy. Thx! Ken G. Brown >Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 18:12:29 +0200 >From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> >Subject: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions >To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org>, "Seaside - general > discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >Message-ID: > <6ac749c10805090912h6330e548y1ed030a48b96e98c(a)mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Hi, > >I've just uploaded new squeak-dev and squeak-web images based on >Squeak3.9.1-7075 and Squeak3.10-7159. > >Download: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1211 > >More information and download links: >http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev.html > >Changes in this version: >--------------------------- > >- Algernon has been included in the beta images >(http://news.squeak.org/2008/05/07/algernon-your-personal-assistant-for-sque…). >- Diff Tools have also been included in the beta images >(http://astares.blogspot.com/2008/04/diff-tools-for-squeak.html) >- Monticello 1.5 has been removed from the beta images because it >seems to cause some troubles. However, I would like to reintroduce it >as soon as people tell me it's now ok. >- Magritte and Pier have been updated in the web images >- OB-Enhancements saw a lot of bug fixes and new features (inclusion >of smart groups, double-click support on some items...) >- Lots of fixes for OB-Standard >- UIEnhancements has been updated > <snip>

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talk on Newspeak online
by Michael Haupt 12 May '08

12 May '08

Hi, Gilad Bracha's talk on the Newspeak language (which he gave at the Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, Germany on March 11) is now online at http://www.tele-task.de/page50_lecture3490.html. Best, Michael

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Example migration script for sq3-10-7159dev08-05-1
by Ken G. Brown 11 May '08

11 May '08

At 3:30 AM -0700 5/11/08, squeak-dev-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org apparently wrote: >Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:26:30 -0400 >From: "Bill Schwab" <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> >Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions >To: <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >Message-ID: <s8261320.099(a)AN9.ANEST.UFL.EDU> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Ken, > >That sounds impressive. Does this start off with something like: > > (HTTPSocket httpGet: 'installer.pbwiki.com/f/LPF.st') readStream >fileIn. > SmalltalkImage saveAs: 'new.image'. > >probably with some things of your own before (or after?) the image save? > >Anything of your script that you do not mind sharing would be >appreciated as examples. > >Bill I have posted my complete example migration script to <http://installer.pbwiki.com/Example%20migration%20script%20for%20sq3-10-715…>, I even tried to document it a bit! :) It needs some editing of local paths and filenames, and you need to decide whether or not you actually want to perform the tasks. You need to work through the script step by step the first time, executing each doit manually so you know what is happening. For scripts that it uses from http://installer.pbwiki.com, you can pull up those sites in an Internet browser to see what they do. It should provide many examples of working commands some of which took me a while to get working, like the load Workspace text from file one. Keith recently said on #Squeak that --) Installer view 'whatever you want'. (-- will make a local text file of whatever script but I have not quite figured out how to use that yet. If you do, please let me know, and please also let me know of any suggestions for improvement or any issues you run across. Have fun! Ken G. Brown >=============================== >"Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@...> wrote: >15 mins to migrate everything from my 3.10dev8.04.1 working image to a >fresh >dev8.05.1 using my Installer script. >This was mostly just waiting for downloads to occur and to answer ok to >a few >dialogs that pop up for certain changesets. > >This included installing almost everything from >http://installer.pbwiki.com >(LPF, fixes, packages, etc.), FFI, Balloon3D, VMMaker, restoring several >Workspaces to their saved- to-file contents, reloading all my own work >from my >local Monticello repository, applying a few mantis fixes, loading >several other >packages from SqueakMap, Universes and SqueakSource and some other >changesets >from my loacal drive to make generating a VM happy. > >Thx! > >Ken G. Brown > > > >Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. >University of Florida >Department of Anesthesiology >PO Box 100254 >Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > >Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu >Tel: (352) 846-1285 >FAX: (352) 392-7029

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