Squeak-dev July 2007

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140 participants
214 discussions

OmniBrowser mailing list
by Colin Putney 06 Jul '07

06 Jul '07

Hi folks, There's been a lot of activity with OmniBrowser lately, and I figured it was time to try to coordinate the various efforts a little more closely. I've created a mailing list for discussion of OB development, both browsers that use the framework and the evolution of the framework its self. I invite every one who's working on a project that involves OB to subscribe: http://mail.wiresong.ca/mailman/listinfo/ob-dev Cheers, Colin

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[SqueakDevDemo]
by Steve Moffitt 06 Jul '07

06 Jul '07

Hi list -- I found this demo on http://planetsqueak.joyful.com/ -- a very nice intro to developing in Squeak. Stephan Wessels has obviously put a lot of work into this. Demo can be found at http:// squeak.preeminent.org/tut2007/html/index.html . Thank you Stephan -- I'm having lots of fun with this. Steve

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re: how to become modular
by Bill Schwab 06 Jul '07

06 Jul '07

Craig, I was not commenting on how long much time something should take, so much as on the (lack of) equivalence between your work and what Pavel is trying to do (as I understand it). In the flood of posts, I thought I saw you claim that Pavel is duplicating parts of spoon. He wants the 3.10 packaging done yesterday, where you are obviously (witness spoon and squat before it) willing to spend years in the quest for a slash/burn/rebuild solution. There is room (even need) for both approaches, but I think Pavel's approach will do more good for more Squeakers in far less time than Spoon can do on a similar time scale. That is not to say that you will not ultimately create the kernel on top of which future Squeak versions will run, but I do not think that Squeak's development should wait for you to finish what is certainly a big job. Finally, note that packaging will make it easier to merge the two systems in the future. Bill Craig Latta wrote: Hi Bill-- > Just my 2 asCents. Feel free to straighten me out as appropriate. Just one quibble... :) > Spoon appears to be a very much different effort, and one that is > years old. Okay, how long was it supposed to take, and why? :) Again, I'm interested in knowing the perceived constraints. Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Re: how to become modular (was "Contributors Agreement signature status?")
by Bill Schwab 06 Jul '07

06 Jul '07

I have been trying to follow the 3.10 effort. Notice I said "trying" - I'm pretty much lost and playing catchup. With that said, the impression I get is that Pavel is trying to do the componentization that (AFAICT - I'd like to to be wrong) has not materialized. If that's the case, more power to him. With no offense intended to Craig, Spoon appears to be a very much different effort, and one that is years old. It might ultimately be very good for Squeak, but proper packaging and some cruft removal (or perhaps simply identification) as likely by-product strikes me as the next logical step for the Squeak. Just my 2 asCents. Feel free to straighten me out as appropriate. Bill Avi Bryant wrote: I'll speak plainly back, then. You asked in a recent message how to get someone else to use Spoon. The only true answer I can give is, offer them a short term gain. Yes, short term incremental improvement causes the total effort to be greater, but it also mitigates adoption risk: at each incremental stage you can assess whether or not people are actually going to use the work you're doing or not, and modify what you're doing accordingly. It's great to go off on a long-term research project and come back with something beautiful, but there is a significant risk that it will turn out not to be what people actually want, and get no adoption. Having an incremental process in the meantime is valuable, both as a backup in case the long-term project fails, but also to inform the long term project about what the community finds useful and what falls flat. In Vancouver, where I live, there is currently a massive multi-year project going on to extend a subway line from downtown out to the airport. In 2010, when it's complete, it'll be great. For now, it's a massive disruption. I can live with the disruption. Here's what I wouldn't be able to live with: when I'm standing on the street corner hailing a cab to take me to the airport, one of the subway engineers comes over and tells me off. "All you have to do is grab a shovel and help out and we'll get you to the airport in style - *so* much better than a taxi, and less total effort in the long run." That's nice, buddy, but I've got a plane to catch. Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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AW: Re: [SqueakDevDemo]
by Frank Urbach 06 Jul '07

06 Jul '07

I was walking through the tutorial and very impressed by the detailed story of develop a little nice game with squeak. For an non computer-scientist like me there are some nice patterns solving problems coming up some times. Very important for me was the cycle writing test and after this writing the code make the tests green. Many thanks to Steve making this available for us. Cheers, Frank --- Edelstahlwerke Schmees GmbH Geschäftsleitung Clemens Schmees Sitz D-01796 Pirna Handelsregister Dresden HRB 54 www.schmees.com -----Original Message----- From: michael(a)impara.de Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:50:25 To:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org, frank.urbach(a)schmees.com Subject: Re: [SqueakDevDemo] Derek O'Connell wrote: > Anyone else working through this tutorial? And does Steve Wessels read > this list? > > BTW: For anyone not already familiar with his projects see here: > http://squeak.preeminent.org/ Wow, this really should be linked from squeak.org. Had no idea how many interesting things Steve has been doing! And the page seems to be up to date "Last update: 40-Jul-2007" ;-) Michael

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methods for license conversion
by Jerome Peace 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

methods for license conversion Hi Pavel, Thanks for your response. What you are proposing is still a lot of work for someone. If VPRI will foot the effort for their own sake that would save a lot of self-funded hours. Also I suspect that they have come to the conclusion that after a certain amount of best efforts, it will be easiest to dare a certain amount of transgession. Then deal with the situations as they arise. If someone asks us to stop using their code, we just stop and write quickly the work around. Or find someone who has already written it. Thats got to be easier than creating swiss cheese and repairing ALL the holes in anticipation. Yours in curiosity, --Jerome Peace *** >methods for license conversion > > >Pavel Krivanek squeak1 at continentalbrno.cz >Thu Jul 5 06:26:57 UTC 2007 replied: > >Hi Jerome > >On 7/5/07, Jerome Peace <peace_the_dreamer at yahoo.com> wrote: >> methods for license conversion >> >> Hi Pavel, >> >> I know you are putting in good effort and trying hard >> to do what is needed. >> >> We are a resource thin community and what you are >> proposing to accomplish would require a lot of work >> just to get to first base. >> >> >> http://comtalk.net/public/pub/KernelImage/20070704/info.txt >> shows: >> 960 unimplemented calls >> no morphic >> >> DOA and useless as it stands, imho. > >In fact, it's about 340 unimplemented calls if you try to remove the >most common ones (class, blockCopy etc.) > >> >> >> I have tracked down and fixed some unimplemented >> calls. Each one takes the resources of an evening at >> least. Where will we find the resources to fix 960 of >> them? > >Most of them are very easy to remove. > >> Meanwhile squeakland is offering the squeak plugin >> under the apache license. >> What is stopping us from doing the same or at least >> starting from there? >> >> >> How did Squeakland and VPRI manage their license >> change? Why can't we hop on their efforts? >> >> Have I missed something in this analysis? > >Good question. Only Squeak 1.1 is completely under the apache license >so I'm pretty sure that the license information that they offer are >simply not complete. Craig, right? > >> >> Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace >> >> >> >> *** >> > >> > >> >Pavel Krivanek squeak1 at continentalbrno.cz >> >Wed Jul 4 19:40:15 UTC 2007 wrote >> > >> > >> >Hi all, >> > >> >I have prepared an image with small code base that is >> ready for >> >license conversion and is able to load a sequence of >> packages up to >> >working Morphic system. >> > >> >Downloads: >> http://comtalk.net/public/pub/KernelImage/20070704/ >> > >> >- it contains 2919 methods >> >- 1029 methods have no initials of the author hasn't >> subscribed the >> >license conversion agreement so we have to rewrite >> them >> >(http://comtalk.net/public/pub/KernelImage/20070704/authors.ods) >> >- it is able to condense changes >> >- it is able to evaluate unimplemented calls >> >(http://comtalk.net/public/pub/KernelImage/20070704/info.txt) >> >- it is able to print all objects and generate the >> image map in HTML >> >form with reverse references >> >(http://comtalk.net/public/pub/KernelImage/20070704/ImageMap.zip) >> >- it has still 2MB (that's why we need the image >> analysis tool ;-) >> >- it is able to load SUnit and run basic set of >> tests without failures >> >- platform specific code only for Linux >> > >> >I should point out that if I'm talking about >> possibility of loading >> >Morphic into this image, I'm not talking about future >> or theoretical >> >plans but about real possibility supported by >> successful experiments >> >;-) >> > >> >I think that we should define exactly what the term >> 'rewrite a method' >> >means and find some people that want to help with >> license conversion >> >of the image. >> > >> >Cheers, >> >-- Pavel >> *** *** ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/

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Box-Admins Team Report for June, 2007
by Ken Causey 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

The box-admins team is reponsible for seeing that the community shared server is maintained and setting up any new features to be hosted on that server. For June 2007: Work continued with Marcus Denker on setting up a second backup (to compliment the one provided by Göran Krampe). Despite some assistance from Ian Piumarta and a suggestion from Martial Boniou it still doesn't seem to be working quite right. We aren't really sure what else to try and for now are just letting it go (it makes at least a partial backup so is not completely without value) and relying on Göran's backup as the primary one. I want to thank the community for the monetary support needed to fund the box and remind them that the bills continue to appear and that you can currently contribute to the hosting bills by going to http://discuss.squeakfoundation.org/ and clicking on the 'donate' button at the top right. Note that a donation here may be used for other Squeak Foundation services including but not limited to development, development infrastructure, and promotion of Squeak. The services being hosted have continued to grow and include (but are not limited to): http://www.squeak.org/ SqueakMap - http://map.squeak.org/ http://ftp.squeak.org/ http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/ http://discuss.squeakfoundation.org/ http://source.squeakfoundation.org/ http://map.squeak.org/ https://svn.squeak.org/ http://update.squeakfoundation.org/ http://wiki.squeak.org/ http://bugs.squeak.org/ and DNS services for squeak.org and squeakfoundation.org domain names. Ken

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F-Script
by Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

Hi guys, this might be about the first or second time I write to the list. I hadn't being involve so much but I do read it frequently. I was wondering if you knew, or if any-one at squeak dev had participated in the F-Script <http://www.fscript.org/>... I saw a demo video at google the other day and was pretty impressed. Has anybody seen it, heard of it, developed it? I was looking for some comments/opinions. cheers, f(t)

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v3dot10 wrapup?
by Jerome Peace 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

v3dot10 wrapup? Hi Ralph, Cool. I would recommend you officially pick a phase and have that phase reflected in the intermediate release image names. (according to those 7121 is an alpha) My experience from 3dot9 was that test pilots pretty much left things alone until later phases were reached ( gamma and candidate-for-final). 3dot9 actually went from gamma to final at first until people on the board pointed out you needed to disseminate a candidate to turn up the final show stopping bugs. And there were some really good final bugs. It is also my hope that the ftp images will be produced much more frequently. I have chosen not to use up my time running into the cant-get-thar-from-here updating problems. On the other hand I and others can be quite useful observing and pointing out bugs that have gotten into the image via the updating process. Including those caused by the process itself (see my notes on the disappearing changesets.) Again thanks for your response. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace P.S. I am cc'ing this to squeak-dev to see if we can help effecting that rescue. Cheers, -Jer *** >[V3dot10] v3dot10 wrapup? > > >Ralph Johnson johnson at cs.uiuc.edu >Thu Jul 5 11:27:06 UTC 2007 > > >I think Edgar said a few weeks back that he was ready for 3.10 to be >in beta phase. So, it is now in beta phase. We are just trying to >fix bugs, and improve tests. Edgar is trying to fix some problems with >the build process. We have a lot of failing tests that need fixing. > >The beta phase will be indefinite. We'll end it when either a new >team gets announced or we get sick of it, whichever comes first. I >hope the board will rescue us. > >In fact, our alpha phase has been more like a beta phase. Edgar took >a lot of things out of the image, but we didn't add much. Almost all >of the issues that got added were bug fixes. > >So, one could argue that we've been in beta for a long time, and that >now we are in gamma. > >If you have a good automated testing process (which we don't have) >then there isn't much different between beta and gamma. > >-Ralph *** ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

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3dot11?
by Jerome Peace 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

Hi all, It is now July. While 3dot10 has not yet wrapped it is definitely in beta. So it is time to ask where and how is the 3dot11 team being assembled? Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&…

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