Squeak-dev February 2007

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161 participants
240 discussions

Re: ftp.squeak.org/3.8 needs housecleanin
by Karl 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

> > Please could we have the defunct and somewhat dangerous http:// > ftp.squeak.org/3.8/Squeak3.8-6665-*.zip files removed? Nobody should > be using them when the 3.8.1-6747 files are available. > It is quite easy to remove the Squeak3.8-6665-*.zip, but all the platform packages in the 3.8 directory use the 3.8-6665 image so should rebuild them as well? And if yes do we have any volunteers ? Karl

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PositionnableStream>>isEmpty is wrong
by Damien Cassou 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

Hi, I'm reading the ANSI Smalltalk Standard 1.9. Here is the description of #isEmpty: "Returns true if both the set of past and future sequence values of the receiver are empty. Otherwise returns false" However: (ReadStream on: 'gfssfdfds') isEmpty => true I think this is a wrong implementation. What's your opinion ? -- Damien Cassou

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[ANN] KernelImage news - Magritte, Pier and Magma
by Pavel Krivanek 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

Hi all, There are some next important projects that run on the KernelImage now: - Magritte - Pier (with SmaCC runtime) - Magma See: http://www.comtalk.net/Squeak/98 I have tested one Seaside application that uses Magritte and Magma and it seems that it runs pretty well. If you will change the root in Magma, you will have to handle and resume a warning. So please make more tests. Cheers, -- Pavel

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RE: Why should this not work?
by Alan Kay 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

Hi Robert -- And there's no reason why you can't put the creation of your wrapped objects in Class Morph itself. So instead of X := MorphicObject on: StarMorph. you would have something that looked more like: X := StarMorph newer. (or some such) that would manifest your MorphicObject wrapper. Cheers, Alan At 09:40 PM 2/27/2007, Robert Hawley wrote: >Hi Alan and Andreas > >Thank you for replying and for your inputs. I have looked at Tweak >- and likewise Croquet - and love them both! I don't know when or >how the Tweak/Morphic issue will develop, so for now, Morphic >remains a useful tool for my quick demo programming needs. > >I have had further thoughts on the issue I am persuing. These >discussions are helping. I think I have a simple solution - one >that doesn't interfer with the existing morph and player code at >all. I've created a new class called MorphicObject that simply >encapsulates the morph - it then relays the messages to the morph or >to the player as appropriate. The relaying is not done within the >morph class so morphs exist with no interference from me. It still >works by trapping and forwarding the dnus - but in a way that is not >really MI - it just steers the messages to either the morph or the >player as appropriate. (All it does is what a programmer would have >to know to do when using assuredPlayer; so from the 'learning' point >of view it does what I wanted; it bypasses the player/costume >complexity and keeps the morphicObject behaving like a simple >object.) I think that because this solution is simple it is >relatively easy to track and debug things when they go wrong. I've >put my code at the bottom of the page - it's not very tested yet but >it works (I haven't yet looked at the issue of the other subclasses >of Player yet however). > > >From the point of view of someone coding, the only thing that is > odd is the creation line: > >X := MorphicObject on: StarMorph. > >then ordinary messages can be sent quite transparently: > >X openInWorld. >X forward: 99. >X lowerPen. > >- obviously the openInWorld and the lowerPen go to the morph, and >the forward: goes to the player. > >A thing I've been after is easy browser access to the scripts. This >is now provided by: > >X editScripts > >I'm happy with this solution; it bridges the gap between scripts and >coding, it is simple, and it is independant of the rest of the system. > >Yours > >Bob > > >-------------------------- > >Re: Why should this not work? > >Alan Kay alan.kay at squeakland.org >Tue Feb 27 16:05:13 UTC 2007 >Previous message: Why should this not work? >Next message: squeaksource.blueplane.jp down >Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >Hi Bob -- > >You could (and maybe should) consider just making an architecture in >Squeak that serves your purposes. The Player architecture in Etoys >was an attempt to make a much simpler (but still comprehensive) >object model, and a viewing architecture that lies "between" (if that >is a reasonable term) Morphic and MVC. One needs to do make simple >ticking scripts like: > > foo forward 20 > foo turn 10 > Holder's cursor increase by 1 > foo look like Holder's player at cursor > >And there are also many needs for multiple views. One of the things >that occurred to us many years ago, and was intensified when >Hypercard came out, is that if you only had "cards": as one's graphic >type, could embed them in each other as much as needed, they could be >any shape (a generalized curve with holes), etc., then you would have >a very capable but extremely simple way to think about manifesting >visible properties. This came from the observation that a Hypercard >card could easily be made to be a view of any set of cards. Morphic >does some of this but it really incorporates the Model and the View >in one object. There needs to be a way to have more than one view, >and this where the costume idea came from. > >You might like to look at Andreas' Tweak architecture, which is most >easily seen (and is kept up to date) in Croquet (opencroquet.org). >This (in my opinion) is a much better and more useful graphics >architecture than Morphic (and it had the advantage of learning from >quite a bit of Morphic experience). The Tweak graphics architecture >is kind of a grown up version of Etoys. > >Cheers, > >Alan > > > > >At 07:35 AM 2/27/2007, Robert Hawley wrote: > >Hi Andreas > > > >I agree that standardly defined things like forward: could be relayed > >from the morph to the player using messages that do the assuredPlayer > >job. I don't know if there is any fundamental reason why this should not > >be included in the released image? (I wonder if the design decisions > >include factors to do with efficiency for example?). This relaying does > >provide trackable messages and it answers part of the issue I am > >questioning. > > > >However, this won't work for user provided scripts, as they are specific > >to an individual player. These associate with a specific named class > >(e.g., Player57) and so it would not be possible to automatically plant > >relaying calls in the (more generic) morph class. My 'fix' (hack) deals > >with this case too. I don't (yet) understand the issue of subclasses of > >Player you mention (the scripts are already in a named subclass of > >player and they are being picked up ok) - I will look into it. > > > >Yours > > > >Bob > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Andreas Raab [mailto:andreas.raab at gmx.de] > >Sent: 27 February 2007 07:44 > >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > >Subject: Re: Why should this not work? > > > >Robert Hawley wrote: > > > Hi Andreas > > > > > > If you argue that morphs are designed only for eToy scripting then I > >suppose I have no point to make. > > > > > > However, morphs are also used for other things. In fact many serious > >Squeak programmers profess 'chosen ignorance' of eToys and yet use > >morphs all the time - to the extent that several want to throw away the > >eToys so that they can use morphs the way that they want to and clean > >the system up. > > > > > > The transition from eToys scripting to programming with Smalltalk is > >clumsy when trying to use it for teaching. When scripts become > >limiting, the shift to using proper browsers is not very straight > >forward (or well documented). I would like to be able to go more > >naturally through this transition - and without having to assume > >expertise at the guru level. Given that scripts can do forward: then it > >is observably odd not to be able to the same thing when coding Smalltalk > >(hence my simple initial question). > > > >None of the above really changes what I said (and which I think you > >misunderstood). I didn't claim that morphs were only designed for eToys > >scripting but this particular aspect (logo-like behavior) was. Because > >of that you can only really use it via its player and you should expect > >to find a certain amount of idiosyncrasies (like #assuredPlayer) when > >you deal with it. If you wanted to change that it would amount to a > >serious bit of redesign. > > > > > doesNotUnderstand: aMessage > > > "RHawley 9/18/2006 06:23" > > > " Redirects the message to the Morph's player if it can respond. > > > Allows commands like forward: to be sent to the morph > >directly > > > (prevously they would have to be directed to the morph's > >player explicitly. > > > Now use, X forward: 10 instead of X assuredPlayer > >forward: 10). > > > This is useful for actions associated with the 'Press > >Me' button" > > > self hasExtension ifFalse: [ > > > (Player lookupSelector: aMessage selector) ifNil: [ > > > ^super doesNotUnderstand: aMessage]]. > > > (self assuredPlayer respondsTo: aMessage selector) ifTrue: [ > > > ^self assuredPlayer perform: aMessage selector > >withArguments: aMessage arguments]. > > > ^super doesNotUnderstand: aMessage > > > > > > With this code, it becomes possible to use standard browsers to write > >code in a way that is more naturally consistent with the scripts the > >students have already met. > > > >That version is a definitive improvement (though it still suffers the > >issues about Player subclasses) but generally I just don't think we > >should "introduce MI" in a singular place in the system. I'd rather add > >a method like: > > > >Morph>>forward: amount > > ^self assuredPlayer forward: amount > > > >which seems much more straightforward for the things you're trying to > >do. > > > >Cheers, > > - Andreas > >Previous message: Why should this not work? >Next message: squeaksource.blueplane.jp down >Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >More information about the Squeak-dev mailing list > >Squeak-dev list courtesy of The InternetOne and tric, the new way > > > > >Object subclass: #MorphicObject > instanceVariableNames: 'morphClass morph' > classVariableNames: '' > poolDictionaries: '' > category: 'Morph-MorphicObject'! >!MorphicObject commentStamp: 'rjh 2/28/2007 04:32' prior: 0! >Useful for coding in the main system in a way that is more >compatible with scripts in eToys. > >Example: >X := MorphicObject on: StarMorph. >X openInWorld. >X forward: 99. >X lowerPen. >X editScripts > >MorphicObject: > - provides a consistency with the way scripts behave. > - provides this consistency fairly transparently. > - enables convenient access to eToy scripts within main > system browsers. > - provides wrappers for morphs - these automatically relay > messages to either the morph > itself or to the morph's player (as appropriate). > - eliminates the need to use #assuredPlayer (as is needed - > when coding - to address a > morph's player): > Rather than: morph assuredPlayer forward: 99 > Have instead: morphicObject forward: 99 > - extends the simple OOP message paradigm more fully by > hiding the fact that eToys are > actually composite objects > (An eToy morphic object is actually in two parts; > the costume and the player). > In the example above the messages are > automatically redirected to the appropriate > component: > X forward: 99 sends the message to > the morph's player. > X lowerPen sends the message > to the morph itself > - opens up a browser on the player in response to the > editScripts message. (Currently this > only works if at least one script has already been > created.) Note that once edited or > created in the browser, scripts will not then be > editable using tiles, and newly created > methods in the broswer will not tidily appear in the eToys world. >! > > >!MorphicObject methodsFor: 'initialize' stamp: 'rjh 2/28/2007 02:58'! >on: aMorphClass > morphClass := aMorphClass. > morph := aMorphClass new! ! > > > > >!MorphicObject methodsFor: 'relay' stamp: 'rjh 2/28/2007 03:33'! >doesNotUnderstand: aMessage > " Redirects the message to the Morph if it can respond, or > to the Morph's player if it can respond, otherwise generates an error." > (morphClass lookupSelector: aMessage selector) ifNotNil: [ > ^morph perform: aMessage selector > withArguments: aMessage arguments]. > morph hasExtension ifFalse: [ > (Player lookupSelector: aMessage selector) ifNil: [ > ^super doesNotUnderstand: aMessage]]. > (morph assuredPlayer respondsTo: aMessage selector) ifTrue: [ > ^morph assuredPlayer perform: aMessage selector > withArguments: aMessage arguments]. > ^super doesNotUnderstand: aMessage ! ! > > >!MorphicObject methodsFor: 'scripts' stamp: 'rjh 2/28/2007 03:57'! >editScripts > Browser newOnClass: self assuredPlayer class! ! > >"-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- "! > >MorphicObject class > instanceVariableNames: ''! > >!MorphicObject class methodsFor: 'as yet unclassified' stamp: 'rjh >2/28/2007 02:56'! >on: aMorphClass > ^super new on: aMorphClass! !

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respondsTo: problem
by Keith Hodges 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

I am trying to call #respondsTo: as part of the startup process, in a class that is registered in the startup list just before SecurityManager. And it gets stuck. can anyone verify this behaviour, or is it just me? Keith ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

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compiling UnixOSProcessPlugin on powerpc
by John M McIntosh 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

If anyone has any interest in compiling the UnixOSProcessPlugin to use with the mac carbon vm for PowerPC you must compile it with PER_ARCH_CFLAGS_ppc -fast -mtune=7450 -mcpu=7450 -fPIC otherwise a structure alignment issue will prevent usage of OSPipes, the writePrim will fail. Mind the interest level in using the plugin with the mac carbon vm on powerpc has been zero, until recently which help uncover this issue. The darwin unix based VM does not have the same issue. -- ======================================================================== === John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ======================================================================== ===

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Why should this not work?
by Robert Hawley 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

X := StarMorph new. X openInWorld. X turn: 135. X forward: 100. You can do it with scripts, so why not for code?

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ByteArray implements #hash but not #=
by Martin Kuball 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

Hi! I'm just wondering why #= is not implemented in class ByteArray. Wouldn't it make sense to have a fast primitive for that instead of using the general implementation in class SequenceableCollection? Martin

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RE: Why should this not work?
by Alan Kay 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

Hi Bob -- You could (and maybe should) consider just making an architecture in Squeak that serves your purposes. The Player architecture in Etoys was an attempt to make a much simpler (but still comprehensive) object model, and a viewing architecture that lies "between" (if that is a reasonable term) Morphic and MVC. One needs to do make simple ticking scripts like: foo forward 20 foo turn 10 Holder's cursor increase by 1 foo look like Holder's player at cursor And there are also many needs for multiple views. One of the things that occurred to us many years ago, and was intensified when Hypercard came out, is that if you only had "cards": as one's graphic type, could embed them in each other as much as needed, they could be any shape (a generalized curve with holes), etc., then you would have a very capable but extremely simple way to think about manifesting visible properties. This came from the observation that a Hypercard card could easily be made to be a view of any set of cards. Morphic does some of this but it really incorporates the Model and the View in one object. There needs to be a way to have more than one view, and this where the costume idea came from. You might like to look at Andreas' Tweak architecture, which is most easily seen (and is kept up to date) in Croquet (opencroquet.org). This (in my opinion) is a much better and more useful graphics architecture than Morphic (and it had the advantage of learning from quite a bit of Morphic experience). The Tweak graphics architecture is kind of a grown up version of Etoys. Cheers, Alan At 07:35 AM 2/27/2007, Robert Hawley wrote: >Hi Andreas > >I agree that standardly defined things like forward: could be relayed >from the morph to the player using messages that do the assuredPlayer >job. I don't know if there is any fundamental reason why this should not >be included in the released image? (I wonder if the design decisions >include factors to do with efficiency for example?). This relaying does >provide trackable messages and it answers part of the issue I am >questioning. > >However, this won't work for user provided scripts, as they are specific >to an individual player. These associate with a specific named class >(e.g., Player57) and so it would not be possible to automatically plant >relaying calls in the (more generic) morph class. My 'fix' (hack) deals >with this case too. I don't (yet) understand the issue of subclasses of >Player you mention (the scripts are already in a named subclass of >player and they are being picked up ok) - I will look into it. > >Yours > >Bob > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andreas Raab [mailto:andreas.raab@gmx.de] >Sent: 27 February 2007 07:44 >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >Subject: Re: Why should this not work? > >Robert Hawley wrote: > > Hi Andreas > > > > If you argue that morphs are designed only for eToy scripting then I >suppose I have no point to make. > > > > However, morphs are also used for other things. In fact many serious >Squeak programmers profess 'chosen ignorance' of eToys and yet use >morphs all the time - to the extent that several want to throw away the >eToys so that they can use morphs the way that they want to and clean >the system up. > > > > The transition from eToys scripting to programming with Smalltalk is >clumsy when trying to use it for teaching. When scripts become >limiting, the shift to using proper browsers is not very straight >forward (or well documented). I would like to be able to go more >naturally through this transition - and without having to assume >expertise at the guru level. Given that scripts can do forward: then it >is observably odd not to be able to the same thing when coding Smalltalk >(hence my simple initial question). > >None of the above really changes what I said (and which I think you >misunderstood). I didn't claim that morphs were only designed for eToys >scripting but this particular aspect (logo-like behavior) was. Because >of that you can only really use it via its player and you should expect >to find a certain amount of idiosyncrasies (like #assuredPlayer) when >you deal with it. If you wanted to change that it would amount to a >serious bit of redesign. > > > doesNotUnderstand: aMessage > > "RHawley 9/18/2006 06:23" > > " Redirects the message to the Morph's player if it can respond. > > Allows commands like forward: to be sent to the morph >directly > > (prevously they would have to be directed to the morph's >player explicitly. > > Now use, X forward: 10 instead of X assuredPlayer >forward: 10). > > This is useful for actions associated with the 'Press >Me' button" > > self hasExtension ifFalse: [ > > (Player lookupSelector: aMessage selector) ifNil: [ > > ^super doesNotUnderstand: aMessage]]. > > (self assuredPlayer respondsTo: aMessage selector) ifTrue: [ > > ^self assuredPlayer perform: aMessage selector >withArguments: aMessage arguments]. > > ^super doesNotUnderstand: aMessage > > > > With this code, it becomes possible to use standard browsers to write >code in a way that is more naturally consistent with the scripts the >students have already met. > >That version is a definitive improvement (though it still suffers the >issues about Player subclasses) but generally I just don't think we >should "introduce MI" in a singular place in the system. I'd rather add >a method like: > >Morph>>forward: amount > ^self assuredPlayer forward: amount > >which seems much more straightforward for the things you're trying to >do. > >Cheers, > - Andreas

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ftp.squeak.org/3.8 needs housecleaning
by tim Rowledge 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

Please could we have the defunct and somewhat dangerous http:// ftp.squeak.org/3.8/Squeak3.8-6665-*.zip files removed? Nobody should be using them when the 3.8.1-6747 files are available. tim -- tim Rowledge; tim(a)rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do

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