Does anyone like full-screen mode besides me? Years ago, when I used Windows, I would always run my Squeak images full-screen because there is something zen-like about being totally immersed into the image environment - it can be nicer experience than running with OS window and the start-bar cruft showing.
But now I'm using Linux and, under that VM, full-screen mode does not allow any other windows to be displayed over full-screen Squeak. For example, I can't press Alt+Tab to bring my command-window to the top, it appears for a split second but then Squeak paints right back over it, but without keyboard focus! The only way to access any other program is to bring Squeak out of full-screen mode.
Which is why the button to go full-screen was recently put to the upper-right corner - to facilitate the constant switching needed to be able to run full-screen.
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image - and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
Would it be difficult for the Linux VM to behave similarly to the Windows VM w.r.t. full-screen mode?
- Chris
On 05.07.2011, at 21:51, Chris Muller wrote:
Does anyone like full-screen mode besides me? Years ago, when I used Windows, I would always run my Squeak images full-screen because there is something zen-like about being totally immersed into the image environment - it can be nicer experience than running with OS window and the start-bar cruft showing.
But now I'm using Linux and, under that VM, full-screen mode does not allow any other windows to be displayed over full-screen Squeak. For example, I can't press Alt+Tab to bring my command-window to the top, it appears for a split second but then Squeak paints right back over it, but without keyboard focus! The only way to access any other program is to bring Squeak out of full-screen mode.
Which is why the button to go full-screen was recently put to the upper-right corner - to facilitate the constant switching needed to be able to run full-screen.
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image
- and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get
to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
Would it be difficult for the Linux VM to behave similarly to the Windows VM w.r.t. full-screen mode?
It's much harder under Linux than on Windows or Mac because there is a gazillion of window managers, not a single UI. Making it work in a specific environment might be doable. In particular if you could point out another program that does it the way you like - do you know any? You could inspect its window properties using xprop.
- Bert -
It's much harder under Linux than on Windows or Mac because there is a gazillion of window managers, not a single UI. Making it work in a specific environment might be doable. In particular if you could point out another program that does it the way you like - do you know any? You could inspect its window properties using xprop.
Firefox seems to do it mostly right. Press F11 in Firefox to go full-screen, I can still bring up other windows via Alt+Tab...
GwenView too..
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 05.07.2011, at 21:51, Chris Muller wrote:
Does anyone like full-screen mode besides me? Years ago, when I used Windows, I would always run my Squeak images full-screen because there is something zen-like about being totally immersed into the image environment - it can be nicer experience than running with OS window and the start-bar cruft showing.
But now I'm using Linux and, under that VM, full-screen mode does not allow any other windows to be displayed over full-screen Squeak. For example, I can't press Alt+Tab to bring my command-window to the top, it appears for a split second but then Squeak paints right back over it, but without keyboard focus! The only way to access any other program is to bring Squeak out of full-screen mode.
Which is why the button to go full-screen was recently put to the upper-right corner - to facilitate the constant switching needed to be able to run full-screen.
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image
- and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get
to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
Would it be difficult for the Linux VM to behave similarly to the Windows VM w.r.t. full-screen mode?
It's much harder under Linux than on Windows or Mac because there is a gazillion of window managers, not a single UI. Making it work in a specific environment might be doable. In particular if you could point out another program that does it the way you like - do you know any? You could inspect its window properties using xprop.
- Bert -
On 06.07.2011, at 16:26, Chris Muller wrote:
It's much harder under Linux than on Windows or Mac because there is a gazillion of window managers, not a single UI. Making it work in a specific environment might be doable. In particular if you could point out another program that does it the way you like - do you know any? You could inspect its window properties using xprop.
Firefox seems to do it mostly right. Press F11 in Firefox to go full-screen, I can still bring up other windows via Alt+Tab...
GwenView too..
Good. So what X properties does FireFox set in its fullscreen mode? There must be some, to get stacked above the system toolbar and menu.
- Bert -
It's been a while since I used Linux, but it should still have multiple console support (alt+Fn or alt+ctrl+Fn or something like that to go to screen n). You should be able to get multiple Xservers/window managers up on the different consoles, and then leave one in squeak full screen and another in the regular desktop. I've never tried the multiple X-server part, but unless the first console is somehow very special (e.g. it's the only one with graphics) you shouldn't have too much trouble.
On 11/07/05 12:51, Chris Muller wrote:
Does anyone like full-screen mode besides me? Years ago, when I used Windows, I would always run my Squeak images full-screen because there is something zen-like about being totally immersed into the image environment - it can be nicer experience than running with OS window and the start-bar cruft showing.
But now I'm using Linux and, under that VM, full-screen mode does not allow any other windows to be displayed over full-screen Squeak. For example, I can't press Alt+Tab to bring my command-window to the top, it appears for a split second but then Squeak paints right back over it, but without keyboard focus! The only way to access any other program is to bring Squeak out of full-screen mode.
Which is why the button to go full-screen was recently put to the upper-right corner - to facilitate the constant switching needed to be able to run full-screen.
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image
- and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get
to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
Would it be difficult for the Linux VM to behave similarly to the Windows VM w.r.t. full-screen mode?
- Chris
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 15:41, Tom Rushworth tom.b.rushworth@gmail.com wrote:
It's been a while since I used Linux, but it should still have multiple console support (alt+Fn or alt+ctrl+Fn or something like that to go to screen n). You should be able to get multiple Xservers/window managers up on the different consoles, and then leave one in squeak full screen and another in the regular desktop. I've never tried the multiple X-server part, but unless the first console is somehow very special (e.g. it's the only one with graphics) you shouldn't have too much trouble.
Could you also put the Squeak window full on a separate desktop? Still, you don't get the Alt-Tab results, I suppose.
On 11/07/05 12:51, Chris Muller wrote:
Does anyone like full-screen mode besides me? Years ago, when I used Windows, I would always run my Squeak images full-screen because there is something zen-like about being totally immersed into the image environment - it can be nicer experience than running with OS window and the start-bar cruft showing.
But now I'm using Linux and, under that VM, full-screen mode does not allow any other windows to be displayed over full-screen Squeak. For example, I can't press Alt+Tab to bring my command-window to the top, it appears for a split second but then Squeak paints right back over it, but without keyboard focus! The only way to access any other program is to bring Squeak out of full-screen mode.
Which is why the button to go full-screen was recently put to the upper-right corner - to facilitate the constant switching needed to be able to run full-screen.
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image
- and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get
to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
Would it be difficult for the Linux VM to behave similarly to the Windows VM w.r.t. full-screen mode?
- Chris
-- Tom Rushworth
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Tom Rushworth tom.b.rushworth@gmail.com wrote:
It's been a while since I used Linux, but it should still have multiple console support (alt+Fn or alt+ctrl+Fn or something like that to go to screen n). You should be able to get multiple Xservers/window managers up on the different consoles, and then leave one in squeak full screen and another in the regular desktop. I've never tried the multiple X-server part, but unless the first console is somehow very special (e.g. it's the only one with graphics) you shouldn't have too much trouble.
Ah, thanks for reminding me about that! That would certainly be useful to be able to get to a terminal to kill the squeak process.
Launching squeak under X from one of the other terminals is an interesting idea but would still suffer from the same modality problem - e.g., I'm in "Squeak mode" or I'm not, and drag-and-drop interaction from other OS windows (e.g., file-manager) wouldn't be possible.
On 11/07/05 12:51, Chris Muller wrote:
Does anyone like full-screen mode besides me? Years ago, when I used Windows, I would always run my Squeak images full-screen because there is something zen-like about being totally immersed into the image environment - it can be nicer experience than running with OS window and the start-bar cruft showing.
But now I'm using Linux and, under that VM, full-screen mode does not allow any other windows to be displayed over full-screen Squeak. For example, I can't press Alt+Tab to bring my command-window to the top, it appears for a split second but then Squeak paints right back over it, but without keyboard focus! The only way to access any other program is to bring Squeak out of full-screen mode.
Which is why the button to go full-screen was recently put to the upper-right corner - to facilitate the constant switching needed to be able to run full-screen.
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image
- and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get
to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
Would it be difficult for the Linux VM to behave similarly to the Windows VM w.r.t. full-screen mode?
- Chris
-- Tom Rushworth
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 09:07:46PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote:
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Tom Rushworth tom.b.rushworth@gmail.com wrote:
It's been a while since I used Linux, but it should still have multiple console support (alt+Fn or alt+ctrl+Fn or something like that to go to screen n). ?You should be able to get multiple Xservers/window managers up on the different consoles, and then leave one in squeak full screen and another in the regular desktop. ?I've never tried the multiple X-server part, but unless the first console is somehow very special (e.g. it's the only one with graphics) you shouldn't have too much trouble.
Ah, thanks for reminding me about that! That would certainly be useful to be able to get to a terminal to kill the squeak process.
Yes, this is the most straightforward way to get access to a good old-fashioned terminal if the GUI gets hosed for some reason.
Launching squeak under X from one of the other terminals is an interesting idea but would still suffer from the same modality problem
- e.g., I'm in "Squeak mode" or I'm not, and drag-and-drop interaction
from other OS windows (e.g., file-manager) wouldn't be possible.
This also will work (multiple X displays assigned to multiple virtual terminals). But it is not very useful in this case, because just opening an text terminal <ctl><alt><F2> gives you all the access you need to kill the offending Squeak VM process, and <ctl><alt><F7> will take you back to the virtual terminal that is running X11.
But it sounds like the underlying issue is that we may be having trouble interrupting the image reliably, especially when running under Cog. My guess is that this is not a Cog issue; it's more likely to be an issue with responsiveness of the user interrupt handler that gets aggrivated when running under a faster VM. This is only speculation, but I suspect that our time might be better spent on making user interrupt handling behave more reliably, as opposed to finding ways to work around the problem in the X11 window manager.
Dave
On 06.07.2011, at 04:30, David T. Lewis wrote:
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 09:07:46PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote:
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Tom Rushworth tom.b.rushworth@gmail.com wrote:
It's been a while since I used Linux, but it should still have multiple console support (alt+Fn or alt+ctrl+Fn or something like that to go to screen n). ?You should be able to get multiple Xservers/window managers up on the different consoles, and then leave one in squeak full screen and another in the regular desktop. ?I've never tried the multiple X-server part, but unless the first console is somehow very special (e.g. it's the only one with graphics) you shouldn't have too much trouble.
Ah, thanks for reminding me about that! That would certainly be useful to be able to get to a terminal to kill the squeak process.
Yes, this is the most straightforward way to get access to a good old-fashioned terminal if the GUI gets hosed for some reason.
Launching squeak under X from one of the other terminals is an interesting idea but would still suffer from the same modality problem
- e.g., I'm in "Squeak mode" or I'm not, and drag-and-drop interaction
from other OS windows (e.g., file-manager) wouldn't be possible.
This also will work (multiple X displays assigned to multiple virtual terminals). But it is not very useful in this case, because just opening an text terminal <ctl><alt><F2> gives you all the access you need to kill the offending Squeak VM process, and <ctl><alt><F7> will take you back to the virtual terminal that is running X11.
But it sounds like the underlying issue is that we may be having trouble interrupting the image reliably, especially when running under Cog.
That is an issue, but mostly unrelated to this one.
On other platforms it's just really convenient to be able to alt-tab quickly to another application and alt-tab back to your full-screen Squeak workspace. Like, for googling something. I do that all the time.
- Bert -
On 2011-07-06 3:51 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On other platforms it's just really convenient to be able to alt-tab quickly to another application and alt-tab back to your full-screen Squeak workspace. Like, for googling something. I do that all the time.
I haven't been able to use the Linux VM's full-screen support for years. Instead I have had to configure my window manager (Sawfish) to recognise Squeak windows by X class, and to draw them without any window decorations. Once Squeak is open, I press my "maximise window" shortcut key which makes it roughly full-screen. Definitely a poor-man's solution.
For me, it'd be ideal if squeak were a regular window, except when in full-screen mode it is
- drawn without window decorations, and - placed by the VM at 0@0 extent: width@height when full-screen mode is entered
without any of the special-purpose single-app-mode "full screen" flags offered by X window managers.
Regards, Tony
On Wednesday 06 Jul 2011 7:42:46 PM Tony Garnock-Jones wrote:
I haven't been able to use the Linux VM's full-screen support for years. Instead I have had to configure my window manager (Sawfish) to recognise Squeak windows by X class, and to draw them without any window decorations. Once Squeak is open, I press my "maximise window" shortcut key which makes it roughly full-screen. Definitely a poor-man's solution.
Both Squeak and Etoys have worked in fullscreen mode flawlessly for me on Linux (currently on Kubuntu 10.10, intel graphics driver). I use World Menu-
appearance->full screen on/off.
Subbu
On 05/07/11 20:51, Chris Muller wrote:
The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
As others have said, use a terminal to kill the vm, but also keep an ssh server running, very useful on the rare occasion that the system appears unresponsive to input.
-D
On Wednesday 06 Jul 2011 1:21:20 AM Chris Muller wrote:
However, there is a danger with going full-screen. Cog is not very friendly to being interrupted - doing so often seems to lock the image
- and this is a bad situation in full-screen mode since you can't get
to any other windows to kill the process. The only option is a hard-power off - an ungraceful shutdown - losing all unsaved data in all applications - ouch!
On PC keyboard, you can use the Magic SysRq sequences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
ALT+SysRq and press R-E-I-S-U-B in that sequence. This will switch the keyboard from Raw to translated mode, send SIGTERM signal to all processes (except init), send SIGKILL signal, sync all mounted filesystems, unmount them and finally reboot.
Subbu
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Tony Garnock-Jones