So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image?
After all, if we want the Squeak community to grow with developer, we also want to make Squeak more appealing for developer, don't you? Or are there any reason to not do so?
And for educative use, people should just be pointed to SqueakLand, right?
Hilaire
On Jul 10, 2007, at 16:20 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for- developer image?
After all, if we want the Squeak community to grow with developer, we also want to make Squeak more appealing for developer, don't you? Or are there any reason to not do so?
And for educative use, people should just be pointed to SqueakLand, right?
What's the point of having a Squeak release then?
- Bert -
Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
On Jul 10, 2007, at 16:20 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image?
After all, if we want the Squeak community to grow with developer, we also want to make Squeak more appealing for developer, don't you? Or are there any reason to not do so?
And for educative use, people should just be pointed to SqueakLand, right?
What's the point of having a Squeak release then?
I don't see the point. Having a more user centric vision does not break the release process, does it?
Hilaire
On Jul 10, 2007, at 19:31 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
On Jul 10, 2007, at 16:20 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful- for-developer image?
After all, if we want the Squeak community to grow with developer, we also want to make Squeak more appealing for developer, don't you? Or are there any reason to not do so?
And for educative use, people should just be pointed to SqueakLand, right?
What's the point of having a Squeak release then?
I don't see the point. Having a more user centric vision does not break the release process, does it?
Well, you implied that everyone except the people interested in education should use the dev image because it is "regularly-updated and useful-for-developer". That sounds like nobody is interested in the official Squeak release. And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10 you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool and inviting and useful as possible?
- Bert -
El 7/10/07 3:28 PM, "Bert Freudenberg" bert@freudenbergs.de escribió:
And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10 you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool and inviting and useful as possible?
- Bert -
About all Hilaire said, I wandering if he like Pavel work and one of 3.10 goals , try to get closer to MinimalMorphic.
You can't have a smaller image and all the dev tools, but one reliable release letting you go dev or go fun as my "FunSqueak3.10"
Now Avi is working again in Monticello, so I very confident problems end soon.
And when Adrian returns and I could delete wrong files I close to happy guy.
Very thanks all you advice in 3.10, Bert !
Edgar
Edgar J. De Cleene a écrit :
About all Hilaire said, I wandering if he like Pavel work and one of 3.10 goals , try to get closer to MinimalMorphic.
Not only I like it but I experiment it with DrGeoII which use quite a lot Morphic and it works pretty well (see screenshot). I also try with SqueakLight, just a few methods were missing from PasteUpMorph.
Hilaire
El 7/10/07 5:39 PM, "Hilaire Fernandes" hilaire@ofset.org escribió:
I also try with SqueakLight, just a few methods were missing from PasteUpMorph.
Say any problem and I fix. I very like DrGeoII, but I don't play much with it for discover missing methods.
Edgar
On Jul 10, 2007, at 21:55 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
El 7/10/07 3:28 PM, "Bert Freudenberg" bert@freudenbergs.de escribió:
And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10 you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool and inviting and useful as possible?
- Bert -
About all Hilaire said, I wandering if he like Pavel work and one of 3.10 goals , try to get closer to MinimalMorphic.
You can't have a smaller image and all the dev tools, but one reliable release letting you go dev or go fun as my "FunSqueak3.10"
Well my personal opinion is that a release should come in several flavors, from a minimal image to a kitchen-sink one including etoys/ media tools as well as smalltalk dev tools. And, again in my opinion, only the latter deserves the label "Squeak", the smaller would be "Squeak-Core".
That would of course require having more than a single person working on it.
- Bert -
Il giorno mar, 10/07/2007 alle 22.40 +0200, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
On Jul 10, 2007, at 21:55 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
El 7/10/07 3:28 PM, "Bert Freudenberg" bert@freudenbergs.de escribió:
And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10 you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool and inviting and useful as possible?
- Bert -
About all Hilaire said, I wandering if he like Pavel work and one of 3.10 goals , try to get closer to MinimalMorphic.
You can't have a smaller image and all the dev tools, but one reliable release letting you go dev or go fun as my "FunSqueak3.10"
Well my personal opinion is that a release should come in several flavors, from a minimal image to a kitchen-sink one including etoys/ media tools as well as smalltalk dev tools. And, again in my opinion, only the latter deserves the label "Squeak", the smaller would be "Squeak-Core".
That would of course require having more than a single person working on it.
+10000 on having more than a single person working on it.
Giovanni
Giovanni Corriga a écrit :
That would of course require having more than a single person working on it.
+10000 on having more than a single person working on it.
community growth -> attract more developer -> make Squeak/Smalltalk more appealing and sexy
It is not easy but this is the only working rule I know in the free software communities way of life :)
Hilaire
On 10 juil. 07, at 22:40, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Well my personal opinion is that a release should come in several flavors, from a minimal image to a kitchen-sink one including etoys/ media tools as well as smalltalk dev tools. And, again in my opinion, only the latter deserves the label "Squeak", the smaller would be "Squeak-Core".
That would of course require having more than a single person working on it.
Working on which one? I think that damien effort is really valuable. As for 3.10 I proposed to ralph to help but he prefered to work with a new team. So I'm still waiting for regular announce of changes made/harvested. I think that the communication of 3.10 is terrible. So I do not expect people to join with this kind of atmosphere even if I wish it a success. This is also for that that at esug we will try to build a team for 3.11/4.0
Stef
Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de writes:
Well my personal opinion is that a release should come in several flavors, from a minimal image to a kitchen-sink one including etoys/ media tools as well as smalltalk dev tools. And, again in my opinion, only the latter deserves the label "Squeak", the smaller would be "Squeak-Core".
That would of course require having more than a single person working on it.
This is my view as well. In addition, I think it is nice having releases of optional packages, too. That is, it would be nice whenever 3.10 is finalized, to have a finalized squeak-dev along with a set of optional packages that are known to work with it.
-Lex
On 26 Jul 2007 21:05:10 +0200, Lex Spoon lex@lexspoon.org wrote:
This is my view as well. In addition, I think it is nice having releases of optional packages, too. That is, it would be nice whenever 3.10 is finalized, to have a finalized squeak-dev along with a set of optional packages that are known to work with it.
Isn't this what we have? Eventally you will close the 3.10 PU and that will be the finalized version of squeak-dev.
As far as I know, nobody except you can close the 3.10 PU. You have delegated responsibility for keeping individual entities up-to-date to other people. Damien created squeak-dev and updates it. If you want him to do something it is most efficient to send him private e-mail. People tend to miss messages sent to e-mail lists.
So, this seems to me that you are asking someone else to do something you should do. I must be missing something.
-Ralph
Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
I don't see the point. Having a more user centric vision does not break the release process, does it?
Well, you implied that everyone except the people interested in education should use the dev image because it is "regularly-updated and useful-for-developer". That sounds like nobody is interested in the official Squeak release. And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10
Absolutely not. At least it is not what I think. The release process target is to provide us a stable base image, as a base for more user friendly image as squeak-dev for example. These is not about competing but completing. And I guess next squeak-dev will just be again squeak3.10 + more stuff to be user friendly. Again not competing but completing.
you may even be right. Hence my question - what's the point of having a release nobody wants? Why not make the release be as cool and inviting
I think nobody say that, and it is not my thought.
Hilaire
squeak-dev is absolutely not a competitor to 3.10, they are team-mates.
As we make the core squeak smaller, it becomes more important to have standard packages that build upon it. squeak-dev and squeak-web are the only ones so far. Damien is the one responsible for that. We ought to have more; perhaps squeak-cool, squeak-edu, squeak-etoys. Package Universe is a good way to define and publish these packages. If you want to make a squeak-cool, go ahead!
In the next release of 3.10, we will make sure that there are clear instructions for loading squeak-dev.
-Ralph
Ralph Johnson a écrit :
squeak-dev is absolutely not a competitor to 3.10, they are team-mates.
Sure, nobody claims that.
As we make the core squeak smaller, it becomes more important to have standard packages that build upon it. squeak-dev and squeak-web are the only ones so far. Damien is the one responsible for that. We ought to have more; perhaps squeak-cool, squeak-edu, squeak-etoys. Package Universe is a good way to define and publish these packages. If you want to make a squeak-cool, go ahead!
Hum, the pragmatical way will be at first to make more visible the cool-squeak-already-done things as squeak-dev.
In the next release of 3.10, we will make sure that there are clear instructions for loading squeak-dev.
Very interesting discution :-).
The squeak-dev image is built on top of the latest releases of Squeak (3.9 and 3.10). The release team must continue its work. Moreover, squeak-dev images do NOT correct any bug. squeak-dev is only a distribution of the squeak core with packages for developers.
Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
Well, you implied that everyone except the people interested in education should use the dev image because it is "regularly-updated and
Not exactly. What my words implied is that the average user (80%) will want that kind of more friendly image.
useful-for-developer". That sounds like nobody is interested in the official Squeak release. And watching Edgar struggle all alone with 3.10
Indeed, probably only 10% are interested by the official squeak release and contributing to it. This is why it is important to help the community to grow, and a more user friendly image can be helpful for that. It does not mean the official Squeak release is not friendly, but there are place for improvement and hopefully it is done in squeak-dev, and obviously we should take advantage of that.
It is only the rule of statistic and it has nothing to do with the importance or value, for sure the official squeak release image in its own is more important than any other derivative as squeak-dev, but the average user will prefer that last one.
Hilaire
Hi,
Having a link to squeak-dev on the main squeak.org would be very nice. I never understood why spoon access is so direct and not the DevImage projects. I'd like there'd be some mirror sites too: the free.fr is not fast enough. I'm finishing my web sites using squeak and I'll be glad to have a http/ftp mirror of the damien's images.
Regards,
-- Martial
On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 19:31 +0200, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
On Jul 10, 2007, at 16:20 , Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image?
After all, if we want the Squeak community to grow with developer, we also want to make Squeak more appealing for developer, don't you? Or are there any reason to not do so?
And for educative use, people should just be pointed to SqueakLand, right?
What's the point of having a Squeak release then?
I don't see the point. Having a more user centric vision does not break the release process, does it?
Hilaire
On 10-Jul-07, at 7:20 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for- developer image?
Yes. It's not the only sensible download.
What we could probably benefit from would be an expanded downloads page that explains things a bit more clearly and drop the instant- download links for windows/mac in the topright sidebar.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming.
tim Rowledge a écrit :
On 10-Jul-07, at 7:20 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image?
Yes. It's not the only sensible download.
Nice, this is an acknowledge squeak-dev is a sensible download deserving a more visible place. Which are those sensible download. I am ashamed I stopped downloading anything from squeak.org once the WM is installed and the squeak-dev images show up, those last one are too handy.
What we could probably benefit from would be an expanded downloads page that explains things a bit more clearly and drop the instant-download links for windows/mac in the topright sidebar.
That would be great.
Hilaire
On 7/10/07, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
On 10-Jul-07, at 7:20 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not point to the squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for- developer image?
Yes. It's not the only sensible download.
What we could probably benefit from would be an expanded downloads page that explains things a bit more clearly and drop the instant- download links for windows/mac in the topright sidebar.
(CC'ing the webteam)
This sounds like a better idea to me.
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Bert Freudenberg -
Damien Cassou -
Edgar J. De Cleene -
Giovanni Corriga -
Hilaire Fernandes -
Jason Rogers -
Lex Spoon -
Martial Boniou -
Ralph Johnson -
stephane ducasse -
tim Rowledge