Simon,

I believe this is the list of returned agreements and you are on it.

http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/signatories

Ron

-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Simon Michael Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:35 PM To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: DEADLINE for Squeak contributor agreements: 1 May 2007

Hi Craig.. I appear at http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/contributors , but I'm 99% certain I mailed my signed agreement to VPRI.

Thanks - Simon

Alejandro F. Reimondo wrote:

I am sure I have NOT emailed my agreement and I am in the list.

Yes, you are. In the list of people who have NOT emailed the agreement. Before you all cry out "why am I on/not on this list" be advised that there are MANY lists up on Craig's site:

EVERYONE who has contributed is here: http://netjam.org/squeak/contributors/contributors

Contributors who HAVE signed are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/signatories

Contributors who have NOT signed are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/missingSignatories

Contributors that could not be contacted are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/missing

*Please* before you complain make sure you look at the right list.

Cheers, - Andreas

You seemed to be complaining about being on "the" list of people who have signed the agreement although you explicitly chose not to, and since this was the second time someone complained about "the" list I found it prudent to point out that there are multiple lists.

If that's not what you meant to say, then I apologize.

Cheers, - Andreas

Alejandro F. Reimondo wrote:

Andreas, I do not want to invest more of my time on this topic, I've written to this list because I know someone with more time or undestanding will help me to know why my name is listed in a public place where I do not have given permision to be written. In this days when the "Squeak community" (now with a body) do not want anyone to be considered as a contributor, I do not understand why the persons that do not agreed must be discriminated. I think that it is more polite to list the persons that are promoted by the Squeak organization. only trying to help, Ale.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Raab" andreas.raab@gmx.de To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:59 AM Subject: Re: DEADLINE for Squeak contributor agreements: 1 May 2007

...

Alejandro F. Reimondo wrote:

...

I am sure I have NOT emailed my agreement and I am in the list.

Yes, you are. In the list of people who have NOT emailed the agreement. Before you all cry out "why am I on/not on this list" be advised that there are MANY lists up on Craig's site:

EVERYONE who has contributed is here: http://netjam.org/squeak/contributors/contributors

Contributors who HAVE signed are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/signatories

Contributors who have NOT signed are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/missingSignatories

Contributors that could not be contacted are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/missing

*Please* before you complain make sure you look at the right list.

Cheers,

• Andreas

Hi Alejandro--

I've written to this list because I know someone with more time or understanding will help me to know why my name is listed in a public place where I do not have given permission to be written.

The list of contributors from whom we have not received a signed agreement was meant as a gentle reminder to those contributors. All of the lists are meant as a public service for the community. We assumed that, by contributing to a public open-source software project, every contributor would be comfortable with their names being used in these ways.

Please accept our apologies.

In this days when the "Squeak community" (now with a body) do not want anyone to be considered as a contributor...

I couldn't parse that; if you change your mind about spending more of your time on this discussion, I'd appreciate a rephrasing.

I do not understand why the persons that do not agreed must be discriminated.

Again, the list of contributors who have not returned a signed agreement was meant as a gentle reminder to those contributors who, we assumed, had simply not gotten around to it yet.

I think that it is more polite to list the persons that are promoted by the Squeak organization.

I can see that point, however, I don't think it would be sufficiently effective in prompting responses from those contributors who had simply forgotten to return a signed agreement.

thanks again,

-C

I've signed and sended the agreement (received by VP and checked with Kim) but I'm NOT on any of lists of Craig.

I've emailed before to Craig but not get responses.

Cheers.

2007/3/22, Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de:

Alejandro F. Reimondo wrote:

...

I am sure I have NOT emailed my agreement and I am in the list.

Yes, you are. In the list of people who have NOT emailed the agreement. Before you all cry out "why am I on/not on this list" be advised that there are MANY lists up on Craig's site:

EVERYONE who has contributed is here: http://netjam.org/squeak/contributors/contributors

Contributors who HAVE signed are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/signatories

Contributors who have NOT signed are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/missingSignatories

Contributors that could not be contacted are here: http://www.netjam.org/squeak/contributors/missing

*Please* before you complain make sure you look at the right list.

Cheers,

• Andreas

No problem Craig.

I was a bit confused with the "accepted contribution" vs VPRI agreement.

I don't know if I've some "accepted contribution" of sort of Squeak code to main Squeak image.

Cheers and also apologize my lack of understanding with this thread.

Cheers.

2007/3/22, Craig Latta craig@netjam.org:

Hi Germán--

...

I've signed and sended the agreement (received by VP and checked with Kim) but I'm NOT on any of lists of Craig.

 I generate those lists from a larger object database (also

available from http://netjam.org/squeak/contributors ), and only authors with at least one accepted contribution on record appear in them. Please refer me to your accepted contribution(s) so I can update your entry in the database. I apologize for the inconvenience.

...

I've emailed before to Craig but not get responses.

 Yes, I have one message from you, from 23 February 2007. Please

accept my apologies for the delay in responding.

 thanks again,

-C

-- Craig Latta improvisational musical informaticist www.netjam.org Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]

Hi Craig, One page with a table i sbetter becasue a page can be linked from outside loosing context information. thanks, Ale.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Latta" craig@netjam.org To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 4:22 AM Subject: Re: DEADLINE for Squeak contributor agreements: 1 May 2007

Hi--

There are multiple lists at http://netjam.org/squeak/contributors

(all contributors, contributors for whom we have no current email address, contributors who have returned a signed agreement, and contributors who have no returned a signed agreement).

Simon is in the list of all contributors, and the list of

contributors who have returned a signed agreement. Alejandro is in the list of all contributors and the list of contributors who have not returned a signed agreement.

Is the website unclear?


thanks!

-C

-- Craig Latta improvisational musical informaticist www.netjam.org Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]

Hi Karl--

At least two or three of the contributors has passed away.

Yes, David N. Smith (dns), Henrik Gedenryd (hg), and Jerry Archibald (jla) have died.

What is the procedure to deal with that?

Since copyright persists after death in many jurisdictions, the current stance is that we will not include those contributions without some other indication as to their licensing terms. I'd appreciate hearing privately from those who have a particular interest in seeing those contributions included, and from anyone who has licensing terms from those contributors before they died, or from their respective estates.

thanks again,

-C

I thought this was interesting.

http://on-ruby.blogspot.com/2007/01/abandoned-projects-bus-proofing-and.html

Ron

From: Stéphane Rollandin

Craig Latta wrote:

...

 Since copyright persists after death in many jurisdictions, the

current stance is that we will not include those contributions without some other indication as to their licensing terms.

that's sad.

I would not like than, when I die, my public work becomes unavailable just because I'm not here anymore to sign a paper. That's another kind of death.

Shall we now all carry an "intellectual property donor" card so that we can drop dead anytime without fear that our fellow human beings feel obliged to forget what we have done ?

Stef

Klaus,

Just to be clear I thought the article was interesting, but I had a lot of problems with the idea too. Mostly I figured that it was more valuable to have a popular fork of a project then to allow some new leader to take it over. My biggest concern is that someone could hijack someone's reputation by resuming a project that was abandoned. Also it would be possible to have a non-qualified person leading and harming a group. For me most of the problems addressed by this document are solved by popularity. If something is really needed then the developers will find a way to fix or replace it.

Still it is a good thing to think about and an interesting idea.

Ron Teitelbaum

From: Klaus D. Witzel

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:05:26 +0100, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

...

I thought this was interesting.

http://on-ruby.blogspot.com/2007/01/abandoned-projects-bus-proofing-

and.html

I understand and letting another admin, who is under control of the community, make such a decision is a good idea.

But making a decision depending on an outdated or (fraudulent) bouncing email address is not.

/Klaus

...

Ron

...

From: Stéphane Rollandin

Craig Latta wrote:

...

 Since copyright persists after death in many jurisdictions, the

current stance is that we will not include those contributions

without

...

...

...

some other indication as to their licensing terms.

that's sad.

I would not like than, when I die, my public work becomes unavailable just because I'm not here anymore to sign a paper. That's another kind of death.

Shall we now all carry an "intellectual property donor" card so that we can drop dead anytime without fear that our fellow human beings feel obliged to forget what we have done ?

Stef

Craig Latta wrote:

 Also, not redistributing something and forgetting about it are very

different things.

well, I meant the former. since we are in the situation of dropping code from the image just because their authors passed away.

anyway, I'm only saying I find this sad... I don't have anything to propose for a change.

Stef

Stéphane Rollandin lecteur@zogotounga.net writes:

Craig Latta wrote:

...

 Also, not redistributing something and forgetting about it are very

different things.

well, I meant the former. since we are in the situation of dropping code from the image just because their authors passed away.

anyway, I'm only saying I find this sad... I don't have anything to propose for a change.

I understand we can only go so far to track people down. However, it is worth a little effort I think to keep the code if possible. I would imagine the copyright tends to fall to an inheritor in these cases, barring an explicit clause in a will, which seems unlikely.

In that case, it should be possible to contact their family find the inheritor, and ask them.

Do ask the lawyers involved. They can tell you not only a theoretical answer, but a practical one. For example, it might be a practical answer to leave some code in for a while, perhaps with a note in the copyright info.

Lex

Craig wrote...

I can easily do that. So far I've held off because some people

thought showing the number of contributions each person has made would result in hurt feelings.

Possibly, and certainly in the bulk of the system it's frequently the case that the person who *really* wrote the method has been overwritten by someone who may have done nothing more than reformat it, so what is provided by this tally is closer to misinformation than information.

- Dan

Craig Latta craig@netjam.org writes:

...

Some of the names on [the initials-without-names and initials-and-names-without-email-addresses lists] leave me sad. We have had many people contribute, and apparently some of them are just unknown to the current community.

Anyway, please do not make major removals without making a second round of efforts to find these people.

 Ha! We're on the nth round already... but yes, I have no intention

of giving up on anyone, alive or dead.

[...]

 We've already done much more than a little sleuthing, for several

months. And when I say "we", I'm referring to dozens of members of the community.

At least one of them is prominent on Google. Also, FWIW, this thread is the first I heard about a missing-people list and a deadline. If you made an early call for help in finding people, it did not circulate very far.

Anyway, it's a clear sign that the community has new people in it, and that the new folks don't even know who a lot of the older folks are. I am not used to thinking of Squeak as being that old!

Lex Spoon

I just sent Bolot Kerimbaev (initials: bolot) an email; hopefully he'll also know how to contact Aibek.

Jeff Pierce now appears to be with IBM Research; his page there (including email address) is: http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/jspierce/

Josh

On Mar 24, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Lex Spoon wrote:

Craig Latta craig@netjam.org writes:

...

 A list of contributors who have not returned signed  

agreements, and a list of contributors who have no known non-bouncing email address are at:

 http://netjam.org/squeak/contributors

 Please let me know if any information there is incorrect or  

incomplete.

Some of the names on there leave me sad. We have had many people contribute, and apparently some of them are just unknown to the current community.

Anyway, please do not make major removals without making a second round of efforts to find these people. If it's someone who wrote one or two methods, okay just remove the code. If it's someone who contributed a large subsystem, though, then it is very likely that a little sleuthing will turn them up....

To that end, it would be nice if it were possible to post beside each missing person a number of method versions with that person's signature, if that is possible. That way we'd all know who to focus most on trying to find.

Also, does anyone have a code snippet around for browsing the code written by a given address? That is frequently a good tip-off for the initials that have no name associated.

Lex