The Raspberry Pi 5 has been announced and looks likely to be about 3X faster for our purposes. We should probably see around 1.5Gbytecode/sec and 130million sends/sec, for example. It also includes a PCIE connector that will support (with a HAT) M2 type SSDs, so storage should be much faster.
I don't know about but I find the idea that we can get tiny computers for ~$80 with 8Gb ram and so on quite mind-boggling. That's about ¼ the cost of my first mouse...
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim dilate - live long
hi Tim,
On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 11:22 AM Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
The Raspberry Pi 5 has been announced and looks likely to be about 3X faster for our purposes. We should probably see around 1.5Gbytecode/sec and 130million sends/sec, for example. It also includes a PCIE connector that will support (with a HAT) M2 type SSDs, so storage should be much faster.
Cool. What version of ARMv8 is it? Is it exactly the same as the pi4 ISA (v1 IIRC) or l;ater?
I don't know about but I find the idea that we can get tiny computers for
~$80 with 8Gb ram and so on quite mind-boggling. That's about ¼ the cost of my first mouse...
indeed !!
_,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot
Right now all I know is Broadcom BCM2712 2.4GHz quad-core 64-bit Arm Cortex-A76 CPU, with cryptography extensions, 512KB per-core L2 caches and a 2MB shared L3 cache
So that's A76 instead of A72 for cpu upgrade and about double the ram bus speed.
Hackaday has a decent looking article - https://hackaday.com/2023/09/28/a-raspberry-pi-5-is-better-than-two-pi-4s/ - but don't read the comments. As usual, total whack-job stupidity.
On 2023-09-28, at 3:53 PM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
hi Tim,
On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 11:22 AM Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote: The Raspberry Pi 5 has been announced and looks likely to be about 3X faster for our purposes. We should probably see around 1.5Gbytecode/sec and 130million sends/sec, for example. It also includes a PCIE connector that will support (with a HAT) M2 type SSDs, so storage should be much faster.
Cool. What version of ARMv8 is it? Is it exactly the same as the pi4 ISA (v1 IIRC) or l;ater?
I don't know about but I find the idea that we can get tiny computers for ~$80 with 8Gb ram and so on quite mind-boggling. That's about ¼ the cost of my first mouse...
indeed !!
_,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange Opcodes: ZZZZZZZZZZZZ: enter sleep mode
On 2023-09-28, at 4:10 PM, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
So that's A76 instead of A72 for cpu upgrade and about double the ram bus speed.
Ah - that means ARMv8.2-A, apparently
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim The only known way to make software idiot-proof is to take away their computers
Only downside is you need the 5 amp power brick to take advantage of the speed. Plus fan cooling. But, at that price, who cares? Once the PoE hat comes out, I see no advantage to older Pi's. Another round of cases again though argh!
On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 1:22 PM Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
The Raspberry Pi 5 has been announced and looks likely to be about 3X faster for our purposes. We should probably see around 1.5Gbytecode/sec and 130million sends/sec, for example. It also includes a PCIE connector that will support (with a HAT) M2 type SSDs, so storage should be much faster.
I don't know about but I find the idea that we can get tiny computers for ~$80 with 8Gb ram and so on quite mind-boggling. That's about ¼ the cost of my first mouse...
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim dilate - live long
On 2023-10-03, at 8:40 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
Only downside is you need the 5 amp power brick to take advantage of the speed.
You only really need the extra power if you expect to use the USB increased power capability. But for the price of the RPT power supply you get a pretty good USB-C PD PSU. I imagine I'll be using my 5v/5A Meanwell enclosed PSU that currently runs a Pi 4 + SSD, or maybe I'll get a bigger PSU to run several in a pseudo-rack setup?
Plus fan cooling.
Only really needed in a restrictive case, according to at least one of the RPT engineers that has been using a Pi 5 for some time. On my Pi 4 in a tight case I have a $10 argon40.com 'fan HAT' that runs briefly every now and then. I see the latest version comes in a 2-pack for the same $10, which is amazing. They make some nice cases too, so probably a Pi5 version soon.
But, at that price, who cares? Once the PoE hat comes out, I see no advantage to older Pi's. Another round of cases again though argh!
Depends on how crafty you are; older cases from Pi3 era will have the usb & ethernet slots in the right place again and some simple Dremelling would sort out the hdmi etc slots. Then again, I don't use direct display connections so it just doesn't bother me - VNC all the way.
I've been doing all my Squeak work on a Pi for ages now and even a Pi3 is so fast it is amazing to an old fart that grew up fantasising about achieving Dorado speed. My Pi4 is about 1/3rd the speed of my iMac. If a P5 is indeed 3X faster than a Pi4....
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim testicular - a vampire that talks a load of b*ll*cks
I've been doing all my Squeak work on a Pi for ages now and even a Pi3 is so fast it is amazing to an old fart that grew up fantasising about achieving Dorado speed. My Pi4 is about 1/3rd the speed of my iMac. If a P5 is indeed 3X faster than a Pi4....
Do you know if my game at http://www.zogotounga.net/comp/squeak/rogue.htm plays smoothly on a Pi?
Stef
On 2023-10-04, at 4:03 AM, Stéphane Rollandin lecteur@zogotounga.net wrote:
I've been doing all my Squeak work on a Pi for ages now and even a Pi3 is so fast it is amazing to an old fart that grew up fantasising about achieving Dorado speed. My Pi4 is about 1/3rd the speed of my iMac. If a P5 is indeed 3X faster than a Pi4....
Do you know if my game at http://www.zogotounga.net/comp/squeak/rogue.htm plays smoothly on a Pi?
I shall endeavour to find out; proviso - not a gamer, so may not have very useful opinions...
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "Mr. Worf, scan that ship." "Aye aye, Captain... 300 DPI?
On 2023-10-04, at 9:54 AM, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
Do you know if my game at http://www.zogotounga.net/comp/squeak/rogue.htm plays smoothly on a Pi?
I shall endeavour to find out; proviso - not a gamer, so may not have very useful opinions...
On my Pi 4 running via VNC (so somewhat slowed down graphics) it runs but more 'walking pace'. On my iMac it is fairly smooth but I can definitely see slight jumping. If I halve the size of the window on the Pi4 it gets to be very nearly as fast as the iMac. Can't offer an opinion on the sound on the Pi because as we all know the only planet where linux sounds systems actually work is Mars.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: PNG: Pass Noxious Gas
On my Pi 4 running via VNC (so somewhat slowed down graphics) it runs but more 'walking pace'. On my iMac it is fairly smooth but I can definitely see slight jumping. If I halve the size of the window on the Pi4 it gets to be very nearly as fast as the iMac. Can't offer an opinion on the sound on the Pi because as we all know the only planet where linux sounds systems actually work is Mars.
Thanks!
That's promising, Pi 5 then seems like a suitable platform (sound issues aside).
Stef
Pi5 arrived this morning. Lovely little board, so much 'cleaner' than the older models. They even sent a cute Pi branded keyboard & mouse, plus the PSU and active cooler shim.
The insta-benchmarks, as opposed to staid, careful, ones, report 70% of my 2012 iMac 3.9GHz i7 at 1.6billion bytecode/sec and 140 million sends/sec. Pretty damn impressive. It's interesting how the really trivial 'bytecodes/sec' number tracks the basic CPU speed over the last 25 years.
Compared to my Pi4s we're a bit more than double the bytecodes/sec results (2.4Ghz vs 1.4) and nearly treble the sends/sec. Definitely time to use the more serious benchmarks, though maybe after I get the vnc thing sorted out. Right now I'm running on a decidedly dodgy old HD samsung display that flickers horribly because the backlight wants to explode.
The good news is that the 'XWayland' app catches all the old X code and handles it without any obvious issue. I wonder what potential graphics improvements getting a Wayland-native display module might provide. I can't test anything about the PipeWire sound stuff because I have no USB sound device to hand.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn.
On 2023-10-13, at 4:16 PM, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
The insta-benchmarks, as opposed to staid, careful, ones, report 70% of my 2012 iMac 3.9GHz i7 at 1.6billion bytecode/sec and 140 million sends/sec.
Running the Shootout benchmarks across a few machines is interesting. That's four tests named nbody, bintree, chredux & thread.
Pi5 times at 5.1, 3,4, 7,2 & 8,4 secs respectively. My iMac reports 3.8, 2.1, 4.2 & 6.2 which means Pi5 is so close to 70% we might as well use that as a round figure; my other i7 linux machine reports near identical results.
So Pi 5 is a bit over 2.5 times faster than a Pi 4overall which is interesting because it hold true for pretty much every generation step. Add in the jump from the original 2013 era interpreter that we had for the very first Pi to the current cog and we get ratios of (wait for it)
160, 147, 81 & 37
between 2013 and 2023 systems. This Pi is about double the dollar cost of the earliest ones with 32 times the memory and all the other improvements.
The good news is that the 'XWayland' app catches all the old X code and handles it without any obvious issue.
Whoops, turns out my Pi isn't configured to use wayland. I'll try it out sometime.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: KFP: Kindle Fire in Printer
Hi Tim,
On Oct 13, 2023, at 4:17 PM, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
Pi5 arrived this morning. Lovely little board, so much 'cleaner' than the older models. They even sent a cute Pi branded keyboard & mouse, plus the PSU and active cooler shim.
Where did you buy it? I’m lazily looking only on Amazon and as yet they still list only pi 4’s. Also, what distro are you running?
Eliot _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone)
The insta-benchmarks, as opposed to staid, careful, ones, report 70% of my 2012 iMac 3.9GHz i7 at 1.6billion bytecode/sec and 140 million sends/sec. Pretty damn impressive. It's interesting how the really trivial 'bytecodes/sec' number tracks the basic CPU speed over the last 25 years.
Compared to my Pi4s we're a bit more than double the bytecodes/sec results (2.4Ghz vs 1.4) and nearly treble the sends/sec. Definitely time to use the more serious benchmarks, though maybe after I get the vnc thing sorted out. Right now I'm running on a decidedly dodgy old HD samsung display that flickers horribly because the backlight wants to explode.
The good news is that the 'XWayland' app catches all the old X code and handles it without any obvious issue. I wonder what potential graphics improvements getting a Wayland-native display module might provide. I can't test anything about the PipeWire sound stuff because I have no USB sound device to hand.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn.
On 2023-10-22, at 9:42 AM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Tim,
On Oct 13, 2023, at 4:17 PM, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
Pi5 arrived this morning. Lovely little board, so much 'cleaner' than the older models. They even sent a cute Pi branded keyboard & mouse, plus the PSU and active cooler shim.
Where did you buy it? I’m lazily looking only on Amazon and as yet they still list only pi 4’s. Also, what distro are you running?
It was a pre-announce gift from RPT (which given my current financial state after being ripped off by sagetea was nice). They are supposed to be shipping now and I've seen forum posts about them arriving for various people. I'd imagine Adafruit, Mouser, Farnell, PiShop.us etc will have stock fairly soon. There's a full list of official resellers at https://www.raspberrypi.com/resellers/
I'm using, as always, the official Raspberry Pi OS because it's the least annoying unix I've come across. I really wish they could find time to update the x64 compatible version so I could use it instead of %&&$%^ing ubuntu on my i7 server. I've just updated my Pi 4 to the Bookworm release as well, but the older ones are languishing on whatever I last loaded. I do still have one with RISC OS and I really ought to see if we can make a cog vm for it.
geeksmint.com claims that there are 23 OS available and I bet somebody has actually tried all of them ;-) Their list - 1. Raspbian 2. OSMC 3. RISC OS 4. Windows IoT Core 5. Lakka 6. RetroPie 7. Ubuntu Core 8. Linutop 9. Ubuntu Mate 10. Domoticz 11. OpenSUSE 12. Gentoo Linux 13. Arch Linux ARM 14. Kali Linux 15. FreeBSD 16. Batocera.linux 17. SARPi 18. BMC64 19. Manjaro Linux 20. DietPi 21. RecalBox 22. Fedora 23. Tiny Core
I don't think there is any good chance of RISC OS running on the Pi 5 because the A76 core doesn't support 32bit supervisor mode any more :-(
And of course there are whackjobs that swear they want to and can run Windows on it for some utterly incomprehensible reason.
There are some interesting interview videos about the design process on https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/ And of course the web is full of people bitterly complaining that it doesn't include 1Tb SSD, 10Gb ethernet, 6G cell, 192 cores, costs more than a bar of chocolate, etc etc.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim When flying inverted, remember that down is up and up is expensive
I'll add a second vote for Raspberry PI OS. It's nicely done and almost pain free.
On 2023-10-22T20:52:45.000+02:00, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
On 2023-10-22, at 9:42 AM, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tim,
On Oct 13, 2023, at 4:17 PM, Tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote: Pi5 arrived this morning. Lovely little board, so much 'cleaner' than the older models. They even sent a cute Pi branded keyboard & mouse, plus the PSU and active cooler shim.
Where did you buy it? I’m lazily looking only on Amazon and as yet they still list only pi 4’s. Also, what distro are you running?
It was a pre-announce gift from RPT (which given my current financial state after being ripped off by sagetea was nice). They are supposed to be shipping now and I've seen forum posts about them arriving for various people. I'd imagine Adafruit, Mouser, Farnell, PiShop.us [http://PiShop.us%5D%C2%A0etc%C2%A0will%C2%A0have%C2%A0stock%C2%A0fairly%C2%A.... There's a full list of official resellers at https://www.raspberrypi.com/resellers/ I'm using, as always, the official Raspberry Pi OS because it's the least annoying unix I've come across. I really wish they could find time to update the x64 compatible version so I could use it instead of %&&$%^ing ubuntu on my i7 server. I've just updated my Pi 4 to the Bookworm release as well, but the older ones are languishing on whatever I last loaded. I do still have one with RISC OS and I really ought to see if we can make a cog vm for it. geeksmint.com [http://geeksmint.com%5D%C2%A0claims%C2%A0that%C2%A0there%C2%A0are%C2%A023%C2... available and I bet somebody has actually tried all of them ;-) Their list - 1. Raspbian 2. OSMC 3. RISC OS 4. Windows IoT Core 5. Lakka 6. RetroPie 7. Ubuntu Core 8. Linutop 9. Ubuntu Mate 10. Domoticz 11. OpenSUSE 12. Gentoo Linux 13. Arch Linux ARM 14. Kali Linux 15. FreeBSD 16. Batocera.linux 17. SARPi 18. BMC64 19. Manjaro Linux 20. DietPi 21. RecalBox 22. Fedora 23. Tiny Core I don't think there is any good chance of RISC OS running on the Pi 5 because the A76 core doesn't support 32bit supervisor mode any more :-( And of course there are whackjobs that swear they want to and can run Windows on it for some utterly incomprehensible reason. There are some interesting interview videos about the design process on https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/%C2%A0And%C2%A0of%C2%A0course%C2%A0the%C2%A... of people bitterly complaining that it doesn't include 1Tb SSD, 10Gb ethernet, 6G cell, 192 cores, costs more than a bar of chocolate, etc etc. tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim When flying inverted, remember that down is up and up is expensive
I fixed it for you
And of course there are whackjobs that swear they want to and can run Windows on it for some 𝒖𝒕𝒕𝒆𝒓𝒍𝒚 𝒄𝒐𝒏𝒕𝒆𝒎𝒑𝒕𝒊𝒃𝒍𝒆 𝒓𝒆𝒂𝒔𝒐𝒏.
You write
I don't think there is any good chance of RISC OS running on the Pi 5 because the A76
core doesn't support 32bit supervisor mode any more :-(
Tell us more! Is the PI 5 not a 64bit? I suppose 64bit emulation requires 32bit supervisor capabilities somehow. Which way is which what?
••• rabbit ❤️🔥🐰
On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 13:56, Bruce O'Neel <[bruce.oneel@pckswarms.ch](mailto:On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 13:56, Bruce O'Neel <<a href=)> wrote:
I'll add a second vote for Raspberry PI OS. It's nicely done and almost pain free.
On 2023-10-22T20:52:45.000+02:00, Tim Rowledge <tim@rowledge.org> wrote:
On 2023-10-22, at 9:42 AM, Eliot Miranda < eliot.miranda@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi Tim,
On Oct 13, 2023, at 4:17 PM, Tim Rowledge < tim@rowledge.org
wrote:
Pi5 arrived this morning. Lovely little board, so much 'cleaner' than the older models. They even sent a cute Pi branded keyboard & mouse, plus the PSU and active cooler shim.
Where did you buy it? I’m lazily looking only on Amazon and as yet they still list only pi 4’s. Also, what distro are you running?
It was a pre-announce gift from RPT (which given my current financial state after being ripped off by sagetea was nice). They are supposed to be shipping now and I've seen forum posts about them arriving for various people. I'd imagine Adafruit, Mouser, Farnell, PiShop.us etc will have stock fairly soon. There's a full list of official resellers at https://www.raspberrypi.com/resellers/
I'm using, as always, the official Raspberry Pi OS because it's the least annoying unix I've come across. I really wish they could find time to update the x64 compatible version so I could use it instead of %&&$%^ing ubuntu on my i7 server. I've just updated my Pi 4 to the Bookworm release as well, but the older ones are languishing on whatever I last loaded. I do still have one with RISC OS and I really ought to see if we can make a cog vm for it.
geeksmint.com claims that there are 23 OS available and I bet somebody has actually tried all of them ;-)
Their list -
Raspbian
OSMC
RISC OS
Windows IoT Core
Lakka
RetroPie
Ubuntu Core
Linutop
Ubuntu Mate
Domoticz
OpenSUSE
Gentoo Linux
Arch Linux ARM
Kali Linux
FreeBSD
Batocera.linux
SARPi
BMC64
Manjaro Linux
DietPi
RecalBox
Fedora
Tiny Core
I don't think there is any good chance of RISC OS running on the Pi 5 because the A76 core doesn't support 32bit supervisor mode any more :-(
And of course there are whackjobs that swear they want to and can run Windows on it for some utterly incomprehensible reason.
There are some interesting interview videos about the design process on https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/ And of course the web is full of people bitterly complaining that it doesn't include 1Tb SSD, 10Gb ethernet, 6G cell, 192 cores, costs more than a bar of chocolate, etc etc.
tim
--
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org ; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
When flying inverted, remember that down is up and up is expensive
I've tried RogueErrants on the Pi 5 and it runs quite smoothly so far as I can see. This was tested on Pi 5 with Wayland configured, so Squeak is working through the XWayland shim as well as VNC
On 2023-10-05, at 2:20 AM, Stéphane Rollandin lecteur@zogotounga.net wrote:
On my Pi 4 running via VNC (so somewhat slowed down graphics) it runs but more 'walking pace'. On my iMac it is fairly smooth but I can definitely see slight jumping. If I halve the size of the window on the Pi4 it gets to be very nearly as fast as the iMac. Can't offer an opinion on the sound on the Pi because as we all know the only planet where linux sounds systems actually work is Mars.
Thanks!
That's promising, Pi 5 then seems like a suitable platform (sound issues aside).
Stef
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Dopeler effect (n): The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
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