Hello,
After a while I found time to get back to playing with Squeak, and yesterday tried to install Squeak 3.7 beta on SuSE 8.2 from this site:
http://www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak/
I used the RPM versions of "3.7b-5 Unix VM", "Squeak3.7b-5868.image" and "SqueakV3.sources".
Providing I am not misunderstanding something, I have two notes on the installation: First it is confusing that user has to manually unzip the "Squek*.changes.gz" and "Squeak*.image.gz" AFTER the installation .. second that perhaps a start-squeak.sh should be provided.
To start Squeak I run
/usr/lib/squeak/3.7b-5/squeak /usr/lib/squeak/squeak.image
Squeak starts, and after clicking on "The Worlds of Squeak" project, the maximized project shows, but after that: - Games and 3D projects are empty - is that expected? - When clicking on the "Graphics" project, everything freezes.
I tried to update to a newer image to see if some of the above would be fixed, but do not know how to do it ... as well perhaps the fact that the "Games" and "3D" priojects are empty has something to do with the "base vs. complete image" but do not understand enough about it to install the "complete" image.
This may be known issues by now as the rpms are from April, but perhaps it helps as a "bug report",
Thanks, Milan
Hi Milan!
As far as I remember there was a small inisqueak script provided just for that. It sets up squeak for you in the directory where you execute the init script. After that you have the default squeak image and the changes file unziped in this directory with an additional link to the right sources file.
3D and Games are missing in the default image, but I think after the release of 3.7 there will be a kind of "full" image that include these.
You can play with the games after installing the package Games using the PackageLoader.
Alex
Alex,
Thanks for your reply!
I noticed the inisqueak yesterday (after I already manully unzipped the 2 gz files). Is the idea that if I run it after install, then all I have to do is to execute "squeak" with no parameters and it will point to the installed image? If so, that's good, although it would be nice if running "inisqueak" was not necessary (and be part of the rpm install if possible), while minor it would be nice to have sort of a 1-click install.
Regarding the Games, etc, I read more on it on Swiki after I wrote, and yes, it appears there will eventually be avalable in "full" image. It was just a bit confusing seeing empty ellipse like that, and, most importantly, clicking on "Graphics" everything froze. I just wanted to provide feedback, not sure it's very useful,
Thanks, Milan
On June 15, 2004 03:46 am, Alexander Lazarevic wrote:
Hi Milan!
As far as I remember there was a small inisqueak script provided just for that. It sets up squeak for you in the directory where you execute the init script. After that you have the default squeak image and the changes file unziped in this directory with an additional link to the right sources file.
3D and Games are missing in the default image, but I think after the release of 3.7 there will be a kind of "full" image that include these.
You can play with the games after installing the package Games using the PackageLoader.
Alex
Milan,
yes it would be nice if squeak could handle the setup by itself. I think you don't want to have the OS package system deal with that. On a multiuser system that would mean that during the installation of squeak copies of the default image/changes files (>10MB) would be placed in every user's home directory regardless, if the user wants to use squeak or not.
The purpose of inisqueak is to get you started. It does this by doing the following:
1. Places a copy of the default squeak image (that came within the rpm) named squeak.image in the current directory 2. Places a copy of the associated changes file named squeak.changes in the same dir 3. Creates a soft link named SqueakV3.sources to the actual file. This file is immutable and can be shared by all users of the system.
If you launch the squeak vm without any filename as a command line argument, it looks for a file named squeak.image in the current directory and starts with this if it can find it. So after running inisqueak just execute squeak and there you go.
If you used and saved the image a few times and feel you want to start over again using the default image, then just remove(1) the image and changes file and invoke inisqueak in that dir once more. After some time you might find it usefull to keep several images around. For example a stable image, a development image, a bfav(2) image for bug hunting and maybe a personal base image suited to your needs (eg. additional tools like RefactoringBrowser) and taste (eg. Fonts, Colors, ...).
Alex
(1) BEWARE that by removing these files you will lose everything you've done so far in this image, if you didn't saved your code or your projects in any other way. (2) http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3214
Alex,
Thanks for your detail answer and sorry for my late reply. From your and Lex Spoon's reply to this thread, it sounds like inisqueak is the program a new user should run (not squeak) .. essentially pretend the "squeak" is not there :)
Milan
On June 19, 2004 04:15 am, Alexander Lazarevic wrote:
Milan,
yes it would be nice if squeak could handle the setup by itself. I think you don't want to have the OS package system deal with that. On a multiuser system that would mean that during the installation of squeak copies of the default image/changes files (>10MB) would be placed in every user's home directory regardless, if the user wants to use squeak or not.
The purpose of inisqueak is to get you started. It does this by doing the following:
- Places a copy of the default squeak image (that came within the
rpm) named squeak.image in the current directory 2. Places a copy of the associated changes file named squeak.changes in the same dir 3. Creates a soft link named SqueakV3.sources to the actual file. This file is immutable and can be shared by all users of the system.
If you launch the squeak vm without any filename as a command line argument, it looks for a file named squeak.image in the current directory and starts with this if it can find it. So after running inisqueak just execute squeak and there you go.
If you used and saved the image a few times and feel you want to start over again using the default image, then just remove(1) the image and changes file and invoke inisqueak in that dir once more. After some time you might find it usefull to keep several images around. For example a stable image, a development image, a bfav(2) image for bug hunting and maybe a personal base image suited to your needs (eg. additional tools like RefactoringBrowser) and taste (eg. Fonts, Colors, ...).
Alex
(1) BEWARE that by removing these files you will lose everything you've done so far in this image, if you didn't saved your code or your projects in any other way. (2) http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3214
Milan Zimmermann milan.zimmermann@sympatico.ca wrote:
I noticed the inisqueak yesterday (after I already manully unzipped the 2 gz files). Is the idea that if I run it after install, then all I have to do is to execute "squeak" with no parameters and it will point to the installed image? If so, that's good, although it would be nice if running "inisqueak" was not necessary (and be part of the rpm install if possible), while minor it would be nice to have sort of a 1-click install.
That is what inisqueak is -- just type "inisqueak" and it will set up your directory and run Squeak. If the directory is already set up then it simply runs Squeak, and does not overwrite your files. Further, at least one Unix distribution of Squeak puts inisqueak into the Gnome and KDE menus; that menu item uses "inisqueak" as well.
I do wish that "inisqueak" was called "squeak" and that "squeak" was called "squeakvm", however. That way, newbies would guess the right thing by default and have one less thing to worry about. But, it is hard to change now that so many people are using Squeak already.
-Lex
Lex,
Thanks - it sounds like one should pretend "squeak" does not exist and just run "inisqueak", even when running multiple times, is that right? I have to try tomorrow .. it was confusing to me, as "ini" sounded like run-one-time-only .. plus i did not initially know what it does, so i copied the image and changes and did setup a shell script to run squeak with that image.
Thanks Milan
On June 24, 2004 01:19 pm, Lex Spoon wrote:
Milan Zimmermann milan.zimmermann@sympatico.ca wrote:
I noticed the inisqueak yesterday (after I already manully unzipped the 2 gz files). Is the idea that if I run it after install, then all I have to do is to execute "squeak" with no parameters and it will point to the installed image? If so, that's good, although it would be nice if running "inisqueak" was not necessary (and be part of the rpm install if possible), while minor it would be nice to have sort of a 1-click install.
That is what inisqueak is -- just type "inisqueak" and it will set up your directory and run Squeak. If the directory is already set up then it simply runs Squeak, and does not overwrite your files. Further, at least one Unix distribution of Squeak puts inisqueak into the Gnome and KDE menus; that menu item uses "inisqueak" as well.
I do wish that "inisqueak" was called "squeak" and that "squeak" was called "squeakvm", however. That way, newbies would guess the right thing by default and have one less thing to worry about. But, it is hard to change now that so many people are using Squeak already.
-Lex
I installed the Debian packages first, and then the plug-in. Installing the plug-in broke my previous debian installation and I had to reinstall.
Also, first thing it asks when using the plug-in is to upgrade (from within the browser). That caught me for a while, hanging my browser. Reason: I was running the browser as non-root (for security reasons, this is a good idea, and sometimes not an option if you're running a multi-user environment).
So basically you CAN'T update the plug-in if the browser is run as non-root, and the user has to figure this out (my guess is many will be clueless and dissapointed).
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:54:59 -0400, Milan Zimmermann milan.zimmermann@sympatico.ca wrote:
Lex,
Thanks - it sounds like one should pretend "squeak" does not exist and just run "inisqueak", even when running multiple times, is that right? I have to try tomorrow .. it was confusing to me, as "ini" sounded like run-one-time-only .. plus i did not initially know what it does, so i copied the image and changes and did setup a shell script to run squeak with that image.
Thanks Milan
On June 24, 2004 01:19 pm, Lex Spoon wrote:
Milan Zimmermann milan.zimmermann@sympatico.ca wrote:
I noticed the inisqueak yesterday (after I already manully unzipped the 2 gz files). Is the idea that if I run it after install, then all I have to do is to execute "squeak" with no parameters and it will point to the installed image? If so, that's good, although it would be nice if running "inisqueak" was not necessary (and be part of the rpm install if possible), while minor it would be nice to have sort of a 1-click install.
That is what inisqueak is -- just type "inisqueak" and it will set up your directory and run Squeak. If the directory is already set up then it simply runs Squeak, and does not overwrite your files. Further, at least one Unix distribution of Squeak puts inisqueak into the Gnome and KDE menus; that menu item uses "inisqueak" as well.
I do wish that "inisqueak" was called "squeak" and that "squeak" was called "squeakvm", however. That way, newbies would guess the right thing by default and have one less thing to worry about. But, it is hard to change now that so many people are using Squeak already.
-Lex
Am 28.06.2004 um 10:05 schrieb muyuubyou:
I installed the Debian packages first, and then the plug-in. Installing the plug-in broke my previous debian installation and I had to reinstall.
How did you install the browser plugin? What broke? Which debian packages did you use?
Also, first thing it asks when using the plug-in is to upgrade (from within the browser). That caught me for a while, hanging my browser. Reason: I was running the browser as non-root (for security reasons, this is a good idea, and sometimes not an option if you're running a multi-user environment).
So basically you CAN'T update the plug-in if the browser is run as non-root, and the user has to figure this out
Yes, you CAN. ;-) In fact, this is how it was ever intended.
I assume you mean the popup menu from within Squeak in the browser that asks if you want to install updates? That should definitely work! You install the plugin as root, and it puts the plugin image under /usr(/local)/lib/squeak. When you run your browser as non-root (which is indeed the only sensible way to run a browser), the plugin will copy the image to your $(HOME)/.npsqueak/ directory on first run. This is done by the "npsqueakrun" script in the VM version subdirectory. This is the image that gets updated and saved, and of course it should be writable by the user.
(my guess is many will be clueless and dissapointed).
Unfortunately, I think this is true, nevertheless. When I wanted to install Squeak on the SkoleLinux system at LinuxTag, it took *me* like an hour to get everything nicely together (3.6 VM, working plugin, German default image for use by inisqueak). Granted, it was the first time I installed Squeak on a Debian system, but still ...
One problem, for example, was that the npsqueak.so plugin file did not have the executable flag set, which caused the npsqueakregister script (the one registering the plugin with all the browsers) to fail.
I tried the plugin with Mozilla and it works fine. It does not work with Konqueror because Michael's server-side platform-detection logic (project.jsp) does not even show the plugin page. Michael: maybe it's better if you just assume it might work and display the Mozilla page on anything unix-y?
- Bert -
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:04:02 +0200, Bert Freudenberg bert@impara.de wrote:
Am 28.06.2004 um 10:05 schrieb muyuubyou:
I installed the Debian packages first, and then the plug-in. Installing the plug-in broke my previous debian installation and I had to reinstall.
How did you install the browser plugin? What broke? Which debian packages did you use?
I used the .debs at INRIA. This was around 4-5 days ago (yes I'm a new squeaker). It would be best to set up a package server allowing dependencies and a simple apt-get install to do the whole thing, but that's another point.
Also, first thing it asks when using the plug-in is to upgrade (from within the browser). That caught me for a while, hanging my browser. Reason: I was running the browser as non-root (for security reasons, this is a good idea, and sometimes not an option if you're running a multi-user environment).
So basically you CAN'T update the plug-in if the browser is run as non-root, and the user has to figure this out
Yes, you CAN. ;-) In fact, this is how it was ever intended.
I assume you mean the popup menu from within Squeak in the browser that asks if you want to install updates? That should definitely work! You install the plugin as root, and it puts the plugin image under /usr(/local)/lib/squeak. When you run your browser as non-root (which is indeed the only sensible way to run a browser), the plugin will copy the image to your $(HOME)/.npsqueak/ directory on first run. This is done by the "npsqueakrun" script in the VM version subdirectory. This is the image that gets updated and saved, and of course it should be writable by the user.
I run the browser (Mozilla Firefox) as non-root and didn't work. I tried several times. Then I tried running it as root and it worked. Then I switched to non-root and it didn't ask for upgrades anymore. Should I assume it's not using the folders it should? . Please check this.
(my guess is many will be clueless and dissapointed).
Unfortunately, I think this is true, nevertheless. When I wanted to install Squeak on the SkoleLinux system at LinuxTag, it took *me* like an hour to get everything nicely together (3.6 VM, working plugin, German default image for use by inisqueak). Granted, it was the first time I installed Squeak on a Debian system, but still ...
One problem, for example, was that the npsqueak.so plugin file did not have the executable flag set, which caused the npsqueakregister script (the one registering the plugin with all the browsers) to fail.
I tried the plugin with Mozilla and it works fine. It does not work with Konqueror because Michael's server-side platform-detection logic (project.jsp) does not even show the plugin page. Michael: maybe it's better if you just assume it might work and display the Mozilla page on anything unix-y?
- Bert -
It took me around 30 minutes to get the plug-in to work properly, then add some more to realize my previous squeak installation was broken, and reinstall.
Other thing is running different versions of squeak in the same machine. This took me some time as well. I wanted to do this because a)wanted to try mini-squeak from 2.2 b)wanted 2.8 because the latest version has some bugs that get in the way sometimes (I want to test the alpha, but I also want a stable version). I'd say many people would want several versions running (especially developers).
Hope this helps improving Squeak.
Am 28.06.2004 um 11:23 schrieb muyuubyou:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:04:02 +0200, Bert Freudenberg bert@impara.de wrote:
Am 28.06.2004 um 10:05 schrieb muyuubyou:
I installed the Debian packages first, and then the plug-in. Installing the plug-in broke my previous debian installation and I had to reinstall.
How did you install the browser plugin? What broke? Which debian packages did you use?
I used the .debs at INRIA. This was around 4-5 days ago (yes I'm a new squeaker). It would be best to set up a package server allowing dependencies and a simple apt-get install to do the whole thing, but that's another point.
There is. Check out Lex's stuff at http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3616
Also, first thing it asks when using the plug-in is to upgrade (from within the browser). That caught me for a while, hanging my browser. Reason: I was running the browser as non-root (for security reasons, this is a good idea, and sometimes not an option if you're running a multi-user environment).
So basically you CAN'T update the plug-in if the browser is run as non-root, and the user has to figure this out
Yes, you CAN. ;-) In fact, this is how it was ever intended.
I assume you mean the popup menu from within Squeak in the browser that asks if you want to install updates? That should definitely work! You install the plugin as root, and it puts the plugin image under /usr(/local)/lib/squeak. When you run your browser as non-root (which is indeed the only sensible way to run a browser), the plugin will copy the image to your $(HOME)/.npsqueak/ directory on first run. This is done by the "npsqueakrun" script in the VM version subdirectory. This is the image that gets updated and saved, and of course it should be writable by the user.
I run the browser (Mozilla Firefox) as non-root and didn't work. I tried several times. Then I tried running it as root and it worked. Then I switched to non-root and it didn't ask for upgrades anymore. Should I assume it's not using the folders it should? . Please check this.
I do not have a debian machine, so I can't check. What I outlined above is how it's supposed to work.
Hmm, it sounds like the image in your ~/.npsqueak directory is only a link to the one in /usr/lib/squeak. That would explain why you could only write as root, and why it did not ask fot updates anymore. But actually it should not be a link but a copy.
You could try to delete the ~/.npsqueak directory and try with the browser again. Also, it may be someone fiddled with the npsqueakrun script ... Could you send it to me?
Also, it may be that you are running an outdated plugin version. Try this:
find /usr -name npsqueak.so -print | xargs -r ls -l
to list all references to the squeak plugin. They should be references to the one and only npsqueak.so in your Squeak VM directory.
Other thing is running different versions of squeak in the same machine. This took me some time as well. I wanted to do this because a)wanted to try mini-squeak from 2.2 b)wanted 2.8 because the latest version has some bugs that get in the way sometimes (I want to test the alpha, but I also want a stable version). I'd say many people would want several versions running (especially developers).
Running different versions of Squeak is easy, since the latest VM works with all prior image versions. So you need only one VM. Just put the image+changes anywhere you like under your home directory, and run "squeak some.image". You might want to link the global Squeak sources file into this directory, because it still isn't found in the default location.
- Bert -
Bert: sure I can check if those are hard links, symbolic links or copies... but the average user?. Don't worry about me, so far I've been able to figure my stuff out. Worry about the average user. The average user won't even search the wiki. Not even the average *nix user.
Suggestion: add a plug-in download in squeak.org/downloads . Most people would never to find it at squeaklang.org.
I'm not running an outdated version of the plug-in. I downloaded it for the first time 3 days ago, and the VM 4-5 days ago. I'm a new squeaker ;)
Regards,
Ignacio Suárez
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:09:59 +0200, Bert Freudenberg bert@impara.de wrote:
Am 28.06.2004 um 11:23 schrieb muyuubyou:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:04:02 +0200, Bert Freudenberg bert@impara.de wrote:
Am 28.06.2004 um 10:05 schrieb muyuubyou:
I installed the Debian packages first, and then the plug-in. Installing the plug-in broke my previous debian installation and I had to reinstall.
How did you install the browser plugin? What broke? Which debian packages did you use?
I used the .debs at INRIA. This was around 4-5 days ago (yes I'm a new squeaker). It would be best to set up a package server allowing dependencies and a simple apt-get install to do the whole thing, but that's another point.
There is. Check out Lex's stuff at http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3616
Also, first thing it asks when using the plug-in is to upgrade (from within the browser). That caught me for a while, hanging my browser. Reason: I was running the browser as non-root (for security reasons, this is a good idea, and sometimes not an option if you're running a multi-user environment).
So basically you CAN'T update the plug-in if the browser is run as non-root, and the user has to figure this out
Yes, you CAN. ;-) In fact, this is how it was ever intended.
I assume you mean the popup menu from within Squeak in the browser that asks if you want to install updates? That should definitely work! You install the plugin as root, and it puts the plugin image under /usr(/local)/lib/squeak. When you run your browser as non-root (which is indeed the only sensible way to run a browser), the plugin will copy the image to your $(HOME)/.npsqueak/ directory on first run. This is done by the "npsqueakrun" script in the VM version subdirectory. This is the image that gets updated and saved, and of course it should be writable by the user.
I run the browser (Mozilla Firefox) as non-root and didn't work. I tried several times. Then I tried running it as root and it worked. Then I switched to non-root and it didn't ask for upgrades anymore. Should I assume it's not using the folders it should? . Please check this.
I do not have a debian machine, so I can't check. What I outlined above is how it's supposed to work.
Hmm, it sounds like the image in your ~/.npsqueak directory is only a link to the one in /usr/lib/squeak. That would explain why you could only write as root, and why it did not ask fot updates anymore. But actually it should not be a link but a copy.
You could try to delete the ~/.npsqueak directory and try with the browser again. Also, it may be someone fiddled with the npsqueakrun script ... Could you send it to me?
Also, it may be that you are running an outdated plugin version. Try this:
find /usr -name npsqueak.so -print | xargs -r ls -lto list all references to the squeak plugin. They should be references to the one and only npsqueak.so in your Squeak VM directory.
Other thing is running different versions of squeak in the same machine. This took me some time as well. I wanted to do this because a)wanted to try mini-squeak from 2.2 b)wanted 2.8 because the latest version has some bugs that get in the way sometimes (I want to test the alpha, but I also want a stable version). I'd say many people would want several versions running (especially developers).
Running different versions of Squeak is easy, since the latest VM works with all prior image versions. So you need only one VM. Just put the image+changes anywhere you like under your home directory, and run "squeak some.image". You might want to link the global Squeak sources file into this directory, because it still isn't found in the default location.
- Bert -
Hi,
FWIW, when I tried in the past, I was never able to get the plugin working under Koqueror or Mozilla. I still need to try that using 3.7. Sounds like you at least got it working which is encouraging,
Milan
On June 28, 2004 04:05 am, muyuubyou wrote:
I installed the Debian packages first, and then the plug-in. Installing the plug-in broke my previous debian installation and I had to reinstall.
Also, first thing it asks when using the plug-in is to upgrade (from within the browser). That caught me for a while, hanging my browser. Reason: I was running the browser as non-root (for security reasons, this is a good idea, and sometimes not an option if you're running a multi-user environment).
So basically you CAN'T update the plug-in if the browser is run as non-root, and the user has to figure this out (my guess is many will be clueless and dissapointed).
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:54:59 -0400, Milan Zimmermann
milan.zimmermann@sympatico.ca wrote:
Lex,
Thanks - it sounds like one should pretend "squeak" does not exist and just run "inisqueak", even when running multiple times, is that right? I have to try tomorrow .. it was confusing to me, as "ini" sounded like run-one-time-only .. plus i did not initially know what it does, so i copied the image and changes and did setup a shell script to run squeak with that image.
Thanks Milan
On June 24, 2004 01:19 pm, Lex Spoon wrote:
Milan Zimmermann milan.zimmermann@sympatico.ca wrote:
I noticed the inisqueak yesterday (after I already manully unzipped the 2 gz files). Is the idea that if I run it after install, then all I have to do is to execute "squeak" with no parameters and it will point to the installed image? If so, that's good, although it would be nice if running "inisqueak" was not necessary (and be part of the rpm install if possible), while minor it would be nice to have sort of a 1-click install.
That is what inisqueak is -- just type "inisqueak" and it will set up your directory and run Squeak. If the directory is already set up then it simply runs Squeak, and does not overwrite your files. Further, at least one Unix distribution of Squeak puts inisqueak into the Gnome and KDE menus; that menu item uses "inisqueak" as well.
I do wish that "inisqueak" was called "squeak" and that "squeak" was called "squeakvm", however. That way, newbies would guess the right thing by default and have one less thing to worry about. But, it is hard to change now that so many people are using Squeak already.
-Lex
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Alexander Lazarevic -
Bert Freudenberg -
Lex Spoon -
Milan Zimmermann -
muyuubyou