What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
On 21.04.2010, at 22:51, Chris Muller wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
<finegragrain.png>
Needs some 'shopping to make it perfectly tileable.
One oversight we had in 4.1 is that the buttons still have an ugly font - was that intentional?
- Bert -
On 2010/04/23 12:04, Tim Felgentreff wrote:
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 22:56 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
One oversight we had in 4.1 is that the buttons still have an ugly font - was that intentional?
- Bert -
I actually found that a regression. My buttons used to look fine pretty much up until the release.
De gustibus non est disputandum! I found Courier a surprise, but I LIKE that font now. It fits in with the "industrial" default look - brushed metal and greys, and mutued colours when present.
frank
On 23.04.2010, at 12:04, Tim Felgentreff wrote:
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 22:56 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
One oversight we had in 4.1 is that the buttons still have an ugly font - was that intentional?
- Bert -
I actually found that a regression. My buttons used to look fine pretty much up until the release.
You probably changed them in your image, but not the default. That still uses a fuzzy TTF instead of the pretty bitmap ones.
I suggested as much a month ago (see below) but since you were doing the "looks" I did not push my preference.
- Bert -
Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 27. März 2010 13:03:25 MEZ To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] The Trunk: Morphic-ar.395.mcz
On 27.03.2010, at 12:15, tim@nada1.de wrote:
Hi
Because some people asked for thinner window titles, you can set a smaller font using 'Preferences chooseWindowTitleFont'. I set it to Bitstream DejaVu Sans size 9 which should be available in all images.
Regards, Tim
"Bitmap DejaVu Sans" you mean, and bold I guess :)
But I agree, that's a better default. Button labels in particular should use the new bitmap fonts, too. Here's my preference:
Preferences class>>restoreDefaultFonts self setDefaultFonts: #( (setSystemFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans' 9) (setListFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans' 9) (setFlapsFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans Bold' 12) (setEToysFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans Bold' 12) (setPaintBoxButtonFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans Bold' 12) (setMenuFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans' 9) (setWindowTitleFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans Bold' 12) (setBalloonHelpFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans' 7) (setCodeFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans' 9) (setButtonFontTo: 'Bitmap DejaVu Sans' 9) )
To experiment there is also the World menu, "appearance ...", "system fonts".
- Bert -
On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 12:48 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On 23.04.2010, at 12:04, Tim Felgentreff wrote:
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 22:56 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
One oversight we had in 4.1 is that the buttons still have an ugly font - was that intentional?
- Bert -
I actually found that a regression. My buttons used to look fine pretty much up until the release.
You probably changed them in your image, but not the default. That still uses a fuzzy TTF instead of the pretty bitmap ones.
I suggested as much a month ago (see below) but since you were doing the "looks" I did not push my preference.
- Bert -
Oops, sorry, that must have gotten lost... Should we keep the defaults as is or should Squeak adopt bitmap fonts all around? I would like to see the DejaVu Sans fonts everywhere...
-Tim
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
I would like to see the DejaVu Sans fonts everywhere...
-Tim
+1
On 23.04.2010, at 14:08, Tim Felgentreff wrote:
On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 12:48 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On 23.04.2010, at 12:04, Tim Felgentreff wrote:
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 22:56 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
One oversight we had in 4.1 is that the buttons still have an ugly font - was that intentional?
- Bert -
I actually found that a regression. My buttons used to look fine pretty much up until the release.
You probably changed them in your image, but not the default. That still uses a fuzzy TTF instead of the pretty bitmap ones.
I suggested as much a month ago (see below) but since you were doing the "looks" I did not push my preference.
- Bert -
Oops, sorry, that must have gotten lost... Should we keep the defaults as is or should Squeak adopt bitmap fonts all around? I would like to see the DejaVu Sans fonts everywhere...
-Tim
Well eventually I'd like us to switch to vector fonts on file, to support more than the latin-1 character set out-of-the-box. Possibly using the FreeType plugin, I think that is now in all VMs. We'd have to bundle some fonts with the release though. The Unicode plugin would be another option (I just got word from John Maloney that we could use it under MIT) which even does glyph-shaping IIUC (necessary for some scripts like Arabic or Devanagari) on Mac, Win, and Unix platforms.
Until then, the aa-bitmap fonts are the best-looking we have, so yes, I think that should be the default throughout for now.
- Bert -
Hi,
now I really don't want to poleaxe you, but backgrounds textured like this make me really nervous. Literally, the first thing I did *immediately* after starting up the 4.1 image for the first time was to change the background.
Shouldn't progress be about, like, y'know, functionality, robustness, documentation (me talking), performance?
Yes. It *is* a matter of taste, partially. But you asked for opinions. I'm an engineer. GUIs I design would probably make you die of interface poisoning. :-P
Sorry,
Michael
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
This brings us back to the question: - what if i want a different UI skin/theme , what i should do?
Lately i started own experiments in this way, where i try to separate look style from functional parts. The dilemma, is how make it convenient and non-intrusive. I think that the way how HTML/CSS doing it is fine.
On 21 April 2010 23:57, Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
now I really don't want to poleaxe you, but backgrounds textured like this make me really nervous. Literally, the first thing I did *immediately* after starting up the 4.1 image for the first time was to change the background.
Shouldn't progress be about, like, y'know, functionality, robustness, documentation (me talking), performance?
Yes. It *is* a matter of taste, partially. But you asked for opinions. I'm an engineer. GUIs I design would probably make you die of interface poisoning. :-P
Sorry,
Michael
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
My question has nothing to do with anyone's personal taste or interest. I was simply suggesting that Squeak take on slightly enhanced looks with each new release, rather than looking exactly like the old release.
I think the face-lifting brought some energy to the end of the 4.1 release, and people seem to be energized by new eye-candy..
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Igor Stasenko siguctua@gmail.com wrote:
This brings us back to the question:
- what if i want a different UI skin/theme , what i should do?
Lately i started own experiments in this way, where i try to separate look style from functional parts. The dilemma, is how make it convenient and non-intrusive. I think that the way how HTML/CSS doing it is fine.
On 21 April 2010 23:57, Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
now I really don't want to poleaxe you, but backgrounds textured like this make me really nervous. Literally, the first thing I did *immediately* after starting up the 4.1 image for the first time was to change the background.
Shouldn't progress be about, like, y'know, functionality, robustness, documentation (me talking), performance?
Yes. It *is* a matter of taste, partially. But you asked for opinions. I'm an engineer. GUIs I design would probably make you die of interface poisoning. :-P
Sorry,
Michael
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Yes, indeed. It is more that eye-candy. Squeak starts to look like a 'regular' application while it still preserves the original Squeak GUI elements (projects, flaps etc.) if people want that.
You may create an in-house application with it (adding some menus and dialogs) and need not to explain too much to people.
--Hannes
On 4/22/10, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
My question has nothing to do with anyone's personal taste or interest. I was simply suggesting that Squeak take on slightly enhanced looks with each new release, rather than looking exactly like the old release.
I think the face-lifting brought some energy to the end of the 4.1 release, and people seem to be energized by new eye-candy..
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Igor Stasenko siguctua@gmail.com wrote:
This brings us back to the question:
- what if i want a different UI skin/theme , what i should do?
Lately i started own experiments in this way, where i try to separate look style from functional parts. The dilemma, is how make it convenient and non-intrusive. I think that the way how HTML/CSS doing it is fine.
On 21 April 2010 23:57, Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
now I really don't want to poleaxe you, but backgrounds textured like this make me really nervous. Literally, the first thing I did *immediately* after starting up the 4.1 image for the first time was to change the background.
Shouldn't progress be about, like, y'know, functionality, robustness, documentation (me talking), performance?
Yes. It *is* a matter of taste, partially. But you asked for opinions. I'm an engineer. GUIs I design would probably make you die of interface poisoning. :-P
Sorry,
Michael
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Hi all,
I am all about improving the visual appearance of Squeak. I would perhaps consider prioritizing a consistent and coherent user interface instead. There are still some needs in this area.
An idea of mine may spark some interest, as far as look-and-feel is concerned. Our community could contact DeviantArt and ask if they would be helping us to get contributions for a complete UI from their community. It could be a simple text "Squeak needs your help!" on their main page and we could set up a page with our requirements.
See http://www.deviantart.com/
We've got competent developers here. We could get competent graphic artists to help us. It's a fancy idea but we don't get if we don't ask. Then we beat everyone else with the best UI ever. ;)
Ian.
On 4/22/2010 8:21 AM, Ian Trudel wrote:
Hi all,
I am all about improving the visual appearance of Squeak. I would perhaps consider prioritizing a consistent and coherent user interface instead. There are still some needs in this area.
An idea of mine may spark some interest, as far as look-and-feel is concerned. Our community could contact DeviantArt and ask if they would be helping us to get contributions for a complete UI from their community. It could be a simple text "Squeak needs your help!" on their main page and we could set up a page with our requirements.
I like the idea. Does anyone have connections into that community? A cold-call probably won't get you very far but if someone who is established in this (or a similar) community would pose the idea it might get more responses. I would definitely support it.
Cheers, - Andreas
See http://www.deviantart.com/
We've got competent developers here. We could get competent graphic artists to help us. It's a fancy idea but we don't get if we don't ask. Then we beat everyone else with the best UI ever. ;)
Ian.
Andreas Raab wrote:
On 4/22/2010 8:21 AM, Ian Trudel wrote:
Hi all,
I am all about improving the visual appearance of Squeak. I would perhaps consider prioritizing a consistent and coherent user interface instead. There are still some needs in this area.
An idea of mine may spark some interest, as far as look-and-feel is concerned. Our community could contact DeviantArt and ask if they would be helping us to get contributions for a complete UI from their community. It could be a simple text "Squeak needs your help!" on their main page and we could set up a page with our requirements.
I like the idea. Does anyone have connections into that community? A cold-call probably won't get you very far but if someone who is established in this (or a similar) community would pose the idea it might get more responses. I would definitely support it.
Cheers,
- Andreas
CG Society would be a good place to ask, also.
See http://www.deviantart.com/
We've got competent developers here. We could get competent graphic artists to help us. It's a fancy idea but we don't get if we don't ask. Then we beat everyone else with the best UI ever. ;)
Ian.
2010/4/22 Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de:
On 4/22/2010 8:21 AM, Ian Trudel wrote:
Hi all,
I am all about improving the visual appearance of Squeak. I would perhaps consider prioritizing a consistent and coherent user interface instead. There are still some needs in this area.
An idea of mine may spark some interest, as far as look-and-feel is concerned. Our community could contact DeviantArt and ask if they would be helping us to get contributions for a complete UI from their community. It could be a simple text "Squeak needs your help!" on their main page and we could set up a page with our requirements.
I like the idea. Does anyone have connections into that community? A cold-call probably won't get you very far but if someone who is established in this (or a similar) community would pose the idea it might get more responses. I would definitely support it.
Cheers, - Andreas
Cold calls are indeed difficult for most people, that is, non salesmen. There are nonetheless ways to go about it and making more bearable for the rest of us. Let me bring up few suggestions...
Our requirements should be defined before establishing contact with communities that we do not have an existing relationship with. It will support our demand for help as well as making it more tangible and clear. Additionally, since it will give them an idea of the workload, it will sort out people who are serious about helping from those who are not. We could come up with soft requirements if going through a complete requirements is too tedious.
John McIntosh inspires me with his open letter. I think we could use a similar technique to drag attention and make people aware we do need help developing graphic resources. He also sent the letter to Steve Jobs and got a response; and that, my friends, is a cold call. Unless they're both best buddies of course.
Then, we could do some PR once we have a soft requirements sheet. What's better than having the requirements + links to download Squeak? People have the software in hands to try out, they might consider helping us. How about we contact journalists and bloggers?
Shall we show the world how much passion and enthusiasm there is in our community? Yes!
Ian.
Nobody is interested to collaborate? I'd hate to see a good idea die alone in the dark. It would be great to know what kind of graphic resources is needed to have a fully functional UI and I'd expect Squeak UI guru(s) to give us some feedback. An estimation in numbers of number of images required would be a plus.
A requirement sheet could further include:
* A comprehensive list of our most important points in term of visual style (and usability?) * A comprehensive list of graphic resources required (icons, menu and window decorations, buttons, splash screen, etc) * Visual effects and transitions, if any * Files and images formats, if any specific ones are required * Accepted License(s) for contributions
We could also stipulate our preferred visual style(s) but it should remain open. We should focus on the most important elements (e.g. related to usability, such as colours that can be looked at for hours and hours without bursting any people's eyes). Graphic designers need to be inspired and have some freedom for their creativity, especially when it comes to contribution given with their heart. :)
I believe Polymorph is currently not loadable in 4.1 and our UI is not really skinable. We should put in place a small plan to make it easy for graphic designers to test their graphics in Squeak, if possible. This will increase the number of contributions.
A simple one page requirements sheet would be more than enough. Anything else should be on?
Ian.
Hi Ian
Thank you for keeping on pressing on this issue.
On 4/24/10, Ian Trudel ian.trudel@gmail.com wrote:
Nobody is interested to collaborate? I'd hate to see a good idea die alone in the dark.
It will not.
I think people _are_ interested in working on this. The challenge is to put mechanisms in place which makes it easy for people to contribute.
More see below.
It would be great to know what kind of graphic
resources is needed to have a fully functional UI and I'd expect Squeak UI guru(s) to give us some feedback. An estimation in numbers of number of images required would be a plus.
Yes, we need to know where the graphic resources (images, icons, color definitions, border with definition etc) are located. Currently I have no idea where to look for this.
A requirement sheet could further include:
- A comprehensive list of our most important points in term of
visual style (and usability?)
- A comprehensive list of graphic resources required (icons, menu
and window decorations, buttons, splash screen, etc)
- Visual effects and transitions, if any
- Files and images formats, if any specific ones are required
- Accepted License(s) for contributions
YES, the license is important.
And we could have different loadable libraries with graphics.
Currently we deal mainly with bitmap graphics. But the source file should be vector graphics wherever possible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Clip_Art_Library http://planet.openclipart.org/
There is the Tango Icon library we could put to immediate use to replace the 'cartoon' arrows. **) The have as well started a table giving a list of visual metaphors http://tango.freedesktop.org/Icon_Metaphors
We could also stipulate our preferred visual style(s) but it should remain open.
Yes
We should focus on the most important elements (e.g. related to usability, such as colours that can be looked at for hours and hours without bursting any people's eyes).
Yes, a list of priorities is an immediate need. However as this is open-source development this list is just a list of suggestions and people may pick to work on something what they feel comfortable with or what they have fun with.
So far we have a solution for changing the background (a few hours old, see another thread). As the next item I would see the replacement of the navigation arrows and then the implementation of a chooser for color themes (I think there are mechanisms in place - we just have to make use of them - i.e. polish and enhance them)
Graphic designers need to be inspired and have some freedom for their creativity, especially when it comes to contribution given with their heart. :)
Yes.
I believe Polymorph is currently not loadable in 4.1 and our UI is not really skinable. We should put in place a small plan to make it easy for graphic designers to test their graphics in Squeak, if possible.
This is linked to your remark above where you say that we need a list of graphical elements (including a description how they are supposed to be named) to make it easy for non-programmers to come up with another set. I.e. something like
myGreatTheme-backarrow.png (this name consists of the theme name together with the resource name - just a start not something really worked out)
This will increase the number of contributions.
Indeed. See the 'personas' movement of Firefox 3.6. You may choose among 10 thousands of 'personas'.
A simple one page requirements sheet would be more than enough.
For the start yes, but I bet you'll see that it will develop quickly .....
Anything else should be on?
I think some more research has to be done to find out and document in a summary view what is already in the system. I think there are graphic themes. Let's give it a try and do some more to find out what is lacking with the current schemes.
I we should work on a list of action points
- background chooser (done by Steve Wessels) - inventory of graphics - dig out things from the past and summarize what is useful for the future (entry point for example http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1114, Appearance / Themes / Skins - October 2006) - evaluation of current situation - what does the 'theme' mechanism in the preferences browser deliver? (see screenshot) - naming scheme for graphical elements of the user interface - polishing the preferences browser - loader for UI-elements ('personas' idea from Firefox; maybe it is possible to tap into that - i.e. just use the 'personas') - list of further actions - .......
Hannes
**) I do not dislike the cartoon icons as such but for a more general audience I think we should have something more neutral. The 'industrial', slightly 'retro' look we now have is quite OK for the time being I think. In the end we should have different well worked out skins and themes people can choose from. One reason for this is that people may adapt Squeak for their specific application needs. Or a game programmer might want to have something particular.
P.S. I am 'out of Squeak office' for the next 3 hours.....
And there is the entry
NEW Skins support for Squeak 3.4/3.5/3.6/3.7
Steve writes that he has successfully imported imported and tested 35 themes at that time (June 2004) From: http://themes.freshmeat.net/browse/925/?topic_id=925
------------------------------------------- Skins [ENH] 13-Jul-2004 tested in Squeak 3.7beta update #5878 13-Apr-2003 tested in Squeak 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 alpha
NEW Skins support for Squeak 3.4/3.5/3.6/3.7 In early February 2003 someone wrote to me again asking if I would please port the old skins code over to Squeak version 3. Fact of the matter is, I did not want to port the old skins code because of a number of outstanding issues. However, I did start working on a re-write a few weekends ago and this is a PRELIMINARY result.
This new model attempts to accomplish a couple of goals that I saw as defects in the original skins model: # Use "standard" theme files from the open source Linux world. # Replace existing morphic components in the skinned window by finding them dynamically and not requiring special subclassed window code. # Provide a way to delete a theme and restore the window to it's original state.
I've accomplished those goals. Also, the framework can be extended to support other imported theme files. At this time the skins framework will import the "Ice Window Manager" themes directly as can be found at a site like http://themes.freshmeat.net. I have successfuly imported and tested 35 themes from that site in Squeak with this new skins code. No special handling of the theme files is required. Just uncompress them and tell Squeak where to find them. More about the actual skins theme process later... The nice part about this approach is that I don't have to concern myself with distibution of themes and art work. Lots of existing themes already exist and are being added regularly. The Ice Window Manager themes were selected as my first importer because they seemed to be the easiest to understand and seem to be standard forms based theme designs. At this time window title bar, title bar buttons and window borders are imported and managed by the skins framework.
On 4/24/10, Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Ian
Thank you for keeping on pressing on this issue.
On 4/24/10, Ian Trudel ian.trudel@gmail.com wrote:
Nobody is interested to collaborate? I'd hate to see a good idea die alone in the dark.
It will not.
I think people _are_ interested in working on this. The challenge is to put mechanisms in place which makes it easy for people to contribute.
More see below.
It would be great to know what kind of graphic
resources is needed to have a fully functional UI and I'd expect Squeak UI guru(s) to give us some feedback. An estimation in numbers of number of images required would be a plus.
Yes, we need to know where the graphic resources (images, icons, color definitions, border with definition etc) are located. Currently I have no idea where to look for this.
A requirement sheet could further include:
- A comprehensive list of our most important points in term of
visual style (and usability?)
- A comprehensive list of graphic resources required (icons, menu
and window decorations, buttons, splash screen, etc)
- Visual effects and transitions, if any
- Files and images formats, if any specific ones are required
- Accepted License(s) for contributions
YES, the license is important.
And we could have different loadable libraries with graphics.
Currently we deal mainly with bitmap graphics. But the source file should be vector graphics wherever possible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Clip_Art_Library http://planet.openclipart.org/
There is the Tango Icon library we could put to immediate use to replace the 'cartoon' arrows. **) The have as well started a table giving a list of visual metaphors http://tango.freedesktop.org/Icon_Metaphors
We could also stipulate our preferred visual style(s) but it should remain open.
Yes
We should focus on the most important elements (e.g. related to usability, such as colours that can be looked at for hours and hours without bursting any people's eyes).
Yes, a list of priorities is an immediate need. However as this is open-source development this list is just a list of suggestions and people may pick to work on something what they feel comfortable with or what they have fun with.
So far we have a solution for changing the background (a few hours old, see another thread). As the next item I would see the replacement of the navigation arrows and then the implementation of a chooser for color themes (I think there are mechanisms in place - we just have to make use of them - i.e. polish and enhance them)
Graphic designers need to be inspired and have some freedom for their creativity, especially when it comes to contribution given with their heart. :)
Yes.
I believe Polymorph is currently not loadable in 4.1 and our UI is not really skinable. We should put in place a small plan to make it easy for graphic designers to test their graphics in Squeak, if possible.
This is linked to your remark above where you say that we need a list of graphical elements (including a description how they are supposed to be named) to make it easy for non-programmers to come up with another set. I.e. something like
myGreatTheme-backarrow.png (this name consists of the theme name together with the resource name - just a start not something really worked out)
This will increase the number of contributions.
Indeed. See the 'personas' movement of Firefox 3.6. You may choose among 10 thousands of 'personas'.
A simple one page requirements sheet would be more than enough.
For the start yes, but I bet you'll see that it will develop quickly .....
Anything else should be on?
I think some more research has to be done to find out and document in a summary view what is already in the system. I think there are graphic themes. Let's give it a try and do some more to find out what is lacking with the current schemes.
I we should work on a list of action points
- background chooser (done by Steve Wessels)
- inventory of graphics
- dig out things from the past and summarize what is useful for the
future (entry point for example http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1114, Appearance / Themes / Skins - October 2006)
- evaluation of current situation - what does the 'theme' mechanism in
the preferences browser deliver? (see screenshot)
- naming scheme for graphical elements of the user interface
- polishing the preferences browser
- loader for UI-elements ('personas' idea from Firefox; maybe it is
possible to tap into that - i.e. just use the 'personas')
- list of further actions
- .......
Hannes
**) I do not dislike the cartoon icons as such but for a more general audience I think we should have something more neutral. The 'industrial', slightly 'retro' look we now have is quite OK for the time being I think. In the end we should have different well worked out skins and themes people can choose from. One reason for this is that people may adapt Squeak for their specific application needs. Or a game programmer might want to have something particular.
P.S. I am 'out of Squeak office' for the next 3 hours.....
The discussion about Skins for Squeak raises my curiosity. As an author of skins packages for Squeak that go back as far as 1987/1988, I just want to point out that I actually like the existing colorful Morphic windows. They are simple and do not distract.
The history of the Skins project is that I wrote that package just to show it could be done if needed, and frankly, it was the "vehicle" I used to teach my self about Morphic (since it was new at that time).
The concept that, if you wanted skins in Squeak, you could wholesale install themes from the open source Linux community, is appealing. Mind you, there are some esoteric and mostly unfit themes out there.
There are several reasons I have not continued to keep the Skins project up to date: 1. I actually like the existing look and feel. 2. It surprises me there is core demand for this capability. I have always thought of it as a "goodie" and more of a personal fun indulgance. I may be wrong about this impression, of course. 3. Bringing the Skins project up to date usually took about a weekend to do because the base Squeak design kept changing so much. So the project would drift away with other personal Squeak projects taking priority - including a Laser Game tutorial rewrite I keep promising to complete.
Mostly, I haven't kept Skins current because I like the existing look. :)
Hi Hannes and Steve,
Thanks for your feedback guys. I particularly appreciate your input, Hannes. By the way, Steve, I am a big fan of your Laser Game tutorial. It's great! Have you considered having your tutorial in Squeak HelpSystem? :)
I absolutely think we should focus only on a simple one page requirements at the moment, based on feedback from our community and conversations with Andreas. Let's build a relationship with graphic communities. We are likely to spend time on refining our knowledge, documentation and UI as time goes by. Realistically, if only we get a bunch of icons within the first 6 months, that would be really great.
The facelift Squeak has experienced is good and an improvement over what we previously had. The main issue is pertaining to the fact that the facelift is bringing Newspeak look-and-feel into Squeak. As far as visual identity is concerned: it looks like Newspeak, then it is Newspeak. This facelift buys us some time but we're going to lose our identity overnight (at least in term of branding).
Your comment about Personas for Firefox is interesting because it reminds me that Squeak is the Smalltalk for multimedia. Ironically, perhaps, I am not sure graphic designers will be thrilled to use Squeak. On the long run, we may have to provide some kind of Smalltalk Starter Guide for Graphics. If they manage to use it and like it, then we get more users and more graphics.
Yes, we need to know where the graphic resources (images, icons, color definitions, border with definition etc) are located. Currently I have no idea where to look for this.
Extra > Standard Graphics Library contains some. The resources are often encoded into methods but sometimes into dictionaries I think. There is a resource manager but I am not sure how it works nor if it is used at all. I know where some resources are but nowhere enough to make a list. Besides, I have to work on my relationship with Morphic. We need gurus to give us feedback.
Would Creative Common an acceptable license? Which other licenses would be acceptable? (Board members, what do you think?)
Yes, a list of priorities is an immediate need.
We should first consider what kind of priority facelifting should have among the current priorities Squeak has (e.g. 4.2 roadmap). As I wrote, the Newspeak look-and-feel buys us some time. At least time to build a relationship with the graphic communities.
myGreatTheme-backarrow.png (this name consists of the theme name together with the resource name - just a start not something really worked out)
A small standard guide would be much needed, indeed. Provided that a resource manager would handle resources, importing and exporting, that could make it much easier.
I think some more research has to be done to find out and document in a summary view what is already in the system.
Documentation is a major task by all means. I would rather favour building a relationship with graphic designers. My understanding is that beautiful concepts don't get far in our community if they are not practical enough.
I think there are graphic themes. Let's give it a try and do some more to find out what is lacking with the current schemes.
Would you care to elaborate? I would rather hope graphic designers tell us about our shortcomings. Some of them are fine UI designers.
I we should work on a list of action points
- background chooser (done by Steve Wessels)
- inventory of graphics
- dig out things from the past and summarize what is useful for the
future (entry point for example http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1114, Appearance / Themes / Skins - October 2006)
What would be our immediate gain in doing this? I suspect it won't give us much. It also remains a documentation task. My point being we should not burden ourselves in order to ensure the success of this idea. However, we can provide new documentation based on our requirements to be integrated. Digging is the work of archaeologists and historians. It's long and boring and this won't get many of us motivated.
- evaluation of current situation - what does the 'theme' mechanism in
the preferences browser deliver? (see screenshot)
- naming scheme for graphical elements of the user interface
I like that. Morphic is very confusing at times.
- polishing the preferences browser
- loader for UI-elements ('personas' idea from Firefox; maybe it is
possible to tap into that - i.e. just use the 'personas')
By the way, would Toolbuilder be skinnable?
There are several reasons I have not continued to keep the Skins project up to date:
- I actually like the existing look and feel.
- It surprises me there is core demand for this capability. I have
always thought of it as a "goodie" and more of a personal fun indulgance. I may be wrong about this impression, of course. 3. Bringing the Skins project up to date usually took about a weekend to do because the base Squeak design kept changing so much. So the project would drift away with other personal Squeak projects taking priority - including a Laser Game tutorial rewrite I keep promising to complete.
Mostly, I haven't kept Skins current because I like the existing look. :)
Steve, I think it's the reason why Squeak has very slowly evolved graphically. Many old timers were used to the look and like it, perhaps ignoring a bit its flaws. It took a long time to get the facelift we have now. In the spirit of rejuvenating the community with new members, the look matters. Besides, in term of deployment, skinning is a great feature — otherwise forever stuck to write custom UI components.
JavaFX is an interesting case study because it understands building UIs require different people (programmers, graphic designers, etc). Business logic can be implemented in Java. JavaFX has a declarative language for its UI, UI builder, and other support for graphic designers. It's fairly easy to build good looking apps. http://javafx.com/samples/
All the best, Ian.
Thank you Ian for your answer. A more elaborate one later. Just a quick note.
The class MenuIcons has a method category 'import/export'. When you do the export you see all the icons in your Squeak directory. So changing them is easy. That could be a field for immediate action - providing icon sets.
Hannes
On 4/25/10, Ian Trudel ian.trudel@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Hannes and Steve,
Thanks for your feedback guys. I particularly appreciate your input, Hannes. By the way, Steve, I am a big fan of your Laser Game tutorial. It's great! Have you considered having your tutorial in Squeak HelpSystem? :)
I absolutely think we should focus only on a simple one page requirements at the moment, based on feedback from our community and conversations with Andreas. Let's build a relationship with graphic communities. We are likely to spend time on refining our knowledge, documentation and UI as time goes by. Realistically, if only we get a bunch of icons within the first 6 months, that would be really great.
The facelift Squeak has experienced is good and an improvement over what we previously had. The main issue is pertaining to the fact that the facelift is bringing Newspeak look-and-feel into Squeak. As far as visual identity is concerned: it looks like Newspeak, then it is Newspeak. This facelift buys us some time but we're going to lose our identity overnight (at least in term of branding).
Your comment about Personas for Firefox is interesting because it reminds me that Squeak is the Smalltalk for multimedia. Ironically, perhaps, I am not sure graphic designers will be thrilled to use Squeak. On the long run, we may have to provide some kind of Smalltalk Starter Guide for Graphics. If they manage to use it and like it, then we get more users and more graphics.
Yes, we need to know where the graphic resources (images, icons, color definitions, border with definition etc) are located. Currently I have no idea where to look for this.
Extra > Standard Graphics Library contains some. The resources are often encoded into methods but sometimes into dictionaries I think. There is a resource manager but I am not sure how it works nor if it is used at all. I know where some resources are but nowhere enough to make a list. Besides, I have to work on my relationship with Morphic. We need gurus to give us feedback.
Would Creative Common an acceptable license? Which other licenses would be acceptable? (Board members, what do you think?)
Yes, a list of priorities is an immediate need.
We should first consider what kind of priority facelifting should have among the current priorities Squeak has (e.g. 4.2 roadmap). As I wrote, the Newspeak look-and-feel buys us some time. At least time to build a relationship with the graphic communities.
myGreatTheme-backarrow.png (this name consists of the theme name together with the resource name - just a start not something really worked out)
A small standard guide would be much needed, indeed. Provided that a resource manager would handle resources, importing and exporting, that could make it much easier.
I think some more research has to be done to find out and document in a summary view what is already in the system.
Documentation is a major task by all means. I would rather favour building a relationship with graphic designers. My understanding is that beautiful concepts don't get far in our community if they are not practical enough.
I think there are graphic themes. Let's give it a try and do some more to find out what is lacking with the current schemes.
Would you care to elaborate? I would rather hope graphic designers tell us about our shortcomings. Some of them are fine UI designers.
I we should work on a list of action points
- background chooser (done by Steve Wessels)
- inventory of graphics
- dig out things from the past and summarize what is useful for the
future (entry point for example http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1114, Appearance / Themes / Skins - October 2006)
What would be our immediate gain in doing this? I suspect it won't give us much. It also remains a documentation task. My point being we should not burden ourselves in order to ensure the success of this idea. However, we can provide new documentation based on our requirements to be integrated. Digging is the work of archaeologists and historians. It's long and boring and this won't get many of us motivated.
- evaluation of current situation - what does the 'theme' mechanism in
the preferences browser deliver? (see screenshot)
- naming scheme for graphical elements of the user interface
I like that. Morphic is very confusing at times.
- polishing the preferences browser
- loader for UI-elements ('personas' idea from Firefox; maybe it is
possible to tap into that - i.e. just use the 'personas')
By the way, would Toolbuilder be skinnable?
There are several reasons I have not continued to keep the Skins project up to date:
- I actually like the existing look and feel.
- It surprises me there is core demand for this capability. I have
always thought of it as a "goodie" and more of a personal fun indulgance. I may be wrong about this impression, of course. 3. Bringing the Skins project up to date usually took about a weekend to do because the base Squeak design kept changing so much. So the project would drift away with other personal Squeak projects taking priority - including a Laser Game tutorial rewrite I keep promising to complete.
Mostly, I haven't kept Skins current because I like the existing look. :)
Steve, I think it's the reason why Squeak has very slowly evolved graphically. Many old timers were used to the look and like it, perhaps ignoring a bit its flaws. It took a long time to get the facelift we have now. In the spirit of rejuvenating the community with new members, the look matters. Besides, in term of deployment, skinning is a great feature — otherwise forever stuck to write custom UI components.
JavaFX is an interesting case study because it understands building UIs require different people (programmers, graphic designers, etc). Business logic can be implemented in Java. JavaFX has a declarative language for its UI, UI builder, and other support for graphic designers. It's fairly easy to build good looking apps. http://javafx.com/samples/
All the best, Ian. -- http://mecenia.blogspot.com/
2010/4/25 Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com:
Thank you Ian for your answer. A more elaborate one later. Just a quick note.
The class MenuIcons has a method category 'import/export'. When you do the export you see all the icons in your Squeak directory. So changing them is easy. That could be a field for immediate action - providing icon sets.
Oh, sure. I have used MenuIcons in the past and few others of this kind. I believe that I have more import/export methods written in an older image. I should have a look.
The best way to convince graphic designers that we need help is to show them. I have prepared a series of screenshots for this purpose. These could be included in our requirements page or something along this line.
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/2010/04/history-of-squeak-in-pictures.html
Ian.
On 25.04.2010, at 06:02, Ian Trudel wrote:
Would Creative Common an acceptable license? Which other licenses would be acceptable? (Board members, what do you think?)
Hard to answer, and I wouldn't know whom to ask. SFC maybe? The MIT license makes no restrictions whatsoever. CC means "some rights reserved".
All CC-NC variants are out obviously. CC-ND is impractical, we need to be able to modify stuff. And CC-SA does require sharing - which is not a bad thing in itself, but MIT does not require it.
The only one I could imagine for inclusion in Squeak would be CC-BY, which only requires attribution, but has no further strings attached. But IANAL and every license we add complicates things. It would be better if it was simply given under MIT.
- Bert -
Hi Bert,
The reason that I have mentioned CC license is because this is something graphic designers understand and a lot of artworks is available under CC. They might not be so familiar with MIT license. CC-BY seems alright to me but it's a good idea to ask SFC.
Ian.
2010/4/25 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 25.04.2010, at 06:02, Ian Trudel wrote:
Would Creative Common an acceptable license? Which other licenses would be acceptable? (Board members, what do you think?)
Hard to answer, and I wouldn't know whom to ask. SFC maybe? The MIT license makes no restrictions whatsoever. CC means "some rights reserved".
All CC-NC variants are out obviously. CC-ND is impractical, we need to be able to modify stuff. And CC-SA does require sharing - which is not a bad thing in itself, but MIT does not require it.
The only one I could imagine for inclusion in Squeak would be CC-BY, which only requires attribution, but has no further strings attached. But IANAL and every license we add complicates things. It would be better if it was simply given under MIT.
- Bert -
On 4/25/10, Ian Trudel ian.trudel@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Bert,
The reason that I have mentioned CC license is because this is something graphic designers understand and a lot of artworks is available under CC.
"content creators" know CC,
They might not be so familiar with MIT license.
The MIT license is for software code.
CC-BY seems alright to me but it's a good idea to ask SFC.
Yes.
The link http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
-- Hannes
2010/4/25 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 25.04.2010, at 06:02, Ian Trudel wrote:
Would Creative Common an acceptable license? Which other licenses would be acceptable? (Board members, what do you think?)
Hard to answer, and I wouldn't know whom to ask. SFC maybe? The MIT license makes no restrictions whatsoever. CC means "some rights reserved".
All CC-NC variants are out obviously. CC-ND is impractical, we need to be able to modify stuff. And CC-SA does require sharing - which is not a bad thing in itself, but MIT does not require it.
The only one I could imagine for inclusion in Squeak would be CC-BY, which only requires attribution, but has no further strings attached. But IANAL and every license we add complicates things. It would be better if it was simply given under MIT.
- Bert -
Bert,
This is a small reminder about Creative Common license. It may be more meaningful than merely graphic resources. We could consider its adoption for our documentation. Keep us posted with what SFC has to say about this!
Ian.
Hi Chris,
On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
My question has nothing to do with anyone's personal taste or interest. I was simply suggesting that Squeak take on slightly enhanced looks with each new release, rather than looking exactly like the old release.
and basically, I agree. But the background is really just the background, and does not have anything to do with how the GUI feels when it's being used.
4.1 looks "different" anyway.
I think the face-lifting brought some energy to the end of the 4.1 release, and people seem to be energized by new eye-candy..
But don't you think the eye-candy that energized people is in other places than the background? What I really like about the GUI enhancements is the slick buttons, title bar sizes, and window colouring. That's what people *work* with.
Hm. In the end, I realise I really don't care about the background. I remove it and get to work. :-)
Best,
Michael
On 4/22/10, Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com wrote:
4.1 looks "different" anyway.
I think the face-lifting brought some energy to the end of the 4.1 release, and people seem to be energized by new eye-candy..
But don't you think the eye-candy that energized people is in other places than the background? What I really like about the GUI enhancements is the slick buttons, title bar sizes, and window colouring. That's what people *work* with.
Hm. In the end, I realise I really don't care about the background. I remove it and get to work. :-)
+1
I like in fact that Squeak comes with an uncluttered workspace. Like a sheet of paper with which you can work...
But what I would like to see is a menu entry in the 'Extras' menu 'Change background'
Then people can change it to something _they_ like an feel at home immediately.
Hannes
On 4/22/2010 7:22 AM, Chris Muller wrote:
My question has nothing to do with anyone's personal taste or interest. I was simply suggesting that Squeak take on slightly enhanced looks with each new release, rather than looking exactly like the old release.
I think you'll find that this happens naturally. Even at this point the trunk already looks ever so slightly different from 4.1 :-)
Cheers, - Andreas
I think the face-lifting brought some energy to the end of the 4.1 release, and people seem to be energized by new eye-candy..
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Igor Stasenkosiguctua@gmail.com wrote:
This brings us back to the question:
- what if i want a different UI skin/theme , what i should do?
Lately i started own experiments in this way, where i try to separate look style from functional parts. The dilemma, is how make it convenient and non-intrusive. I think that the way how HTML/CSS doing it is fine.
On 21 April 2010 23:57, Michael Hauptmhaupt@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
now I really don't want to poleaxe you, but backgrounds textured like this make me really nervous. Literally, the first thing I did *immediately* after starting up the 4.1 image for the first time was to change the background.
Shouldn't progress be about, like, y'know, functionality, robustness, documentation (me talking), performance?
Yes. It *is* a matter of taste, partially. But you asked for opinions. I'm an engineer. GUIs I design would probably make you die of interface poisoning. :-P
Sorry,
Michael
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Chris Mullerasqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
- Chris
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
I think you'll find that this happens naturally. Even at this point the trunk already looks ever so slightly different from 4.1 :-)
Ok, sure. Sorry for trying to whip up a little fun. I'll tell my fun-side to go away so we can get back to serious work..
BTW, we *really* need to replace the cartoon menu icons! Perhaps the deviantArt folks could help with that?
On 4/21/2010 1:51 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
What do folks think about each major Squeak release having slightly different appearance? It seems to have happened, perhaps "naturally," with every version since Squeak 2.9, at least. I think it's great for each release to have its own "personality".
A different background is a great place to start for keeping things fresh with new looks. Is 4.1 using a small tiled picture of some kind? Here is an alternative which I think looks kind of like rough construction paper. 12K though..
Try it with:
World color: (InfiniteForm with: (Form fromBinaryStream: (HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://ftp.squeak.org/trunk/backgrounds/finegragrain.png'))).
Set it as default using:
MorphicProject defaultFill: (InfiniteForm with: (Form fromBinaryStream: (HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://ftp.squeak.org/trunk/backgrounds/finegragrain.png'))).
- A.
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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