---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: José L. Redrejo Rodríguez jredrejo@edu.juntaextremadura.net Date: Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Web page with status of squeak license issue resolution? To: Petter Reinholdtsen pere@hungry.com Cc: Damien Pollet damien.pollet@gmail.com, debian-edu@lists.debian.org
El mar, 26-02-2008 a las 08:29 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen escribió:
Hi. We spoke together after your lightning talk on FOSDEM about getting squeak into Debian. You mentioned that there is slow progress in getting the license question resolved, but that it is a lot of work. Is there a web page documenting the status of this work? Like who need to be contacted, who is already contacted and who is left to contact?
As I mentioned earlier, we in the Debian Edu community are interested in including squeak into our distribution, and for this reason want to see it in Debian/main. CC to our list to keep the other maintainers updated on the squeak status.
I've found URL:http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/159 and URL:http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3733 but did not see any information there about the work on contacting previous authors to get them to agree on a relicensing.
Those page are obsolete. The relicensing process is described and updated at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6016
As the part of code that has not been relicensed is because contacting the authors has not been possible, current plans are rewritting that part of code.
About taking Squeak in Debian, I have an ITP over the squeak virtual machine (#454635) and I plan to upload it as soon as I have time to finish a couple of pending patches for 64 bits platforms. There are different ways to use Squeak, people from squeak.org are more focused in using squeak as a development tool, and people from squeakland.org are more focused in using it for kids and teaching and currently working on the OLPC project. My intention is to do the squeak-vm interface oriented to teachers and students and give to the interface as better integration with the desktop as possible.
For future Squeak images, as soon as the license issue is finished, we can work on different images. At Extremadura we have been working on customizing the image with a more updated interface, more eyecandy and adding projects from all around the world (Germany, Japan, Spain & USA) with a lot of educative tools. The project and the image is available at http://squeak.educarex.es. We have also made some interactive books for maths with the image. Those images are used in our school and will be uploaded to Debian when possible.
So, in brief, today smalltalk developers are needed to recode the small part of code that has not been relicensed yet. There are some voices that say that FSF allows releasing under a free license if the percentage of code without the license is lower than 5%. If that were true it could be done today, but nobody is sure about it.
Regards. José L.
Happy hacking,
Petter Reinholdtsen
On Feb 26, 2008, at 12:43 , Damien Pollet wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: José L. Redrejo Rodríguez jredrejo@edu.juntaextremadura.net Date: Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Web page with status of squeak license issue resolution? To: Petter Reinholdtsen pere@hungry.com Cc: Damien Pollet damien.pollet@gmail.com, debian- edu@lists.debian.org
El mar, 26-02-2008 a las 08:29 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen escribió:
Hi. We spoke together after your lightning talk on FOSDEM about getting squeak into Debian. You mentioned that there is slow progress in getting the license question resolved, but that it is a lot of work. Is there a web page documenting the status of this work? Like who need to be contacted, who is already contacted and who is left to contact?
As I mentioned earlier, we in the Debian Edu community are interested in including squeak into our distribution, and for this reason want to see it in Debian/main. CC to our list to keep the other maintainers updated on the squeak status.
I've found URL:http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/159 and URL:http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3733 but did not see any information there about the work on contacting previous authors to get them to agree on a relicensing.
Those page are obsolete. The relicensing process is described and updated at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6016
As the part of code that has not been relicensed is because contacting the authors has not been possible, current plans are rewritting that part of code.
About taking Squeak in Debian, I have an ITP over the squeak virtual machine (#454635) and I plan to upload it as soon as I have time to finish a couple of pending patches for 64 bits platforms. There are different ways to use Squeak, people from squeak.org are more focused in using squeak as a development tool, and people from squeakland.org are more focused in using it for kids and teaching and currently working on the OLPC project. My intention is to do the squeak-vm interface oriented to teachers and students and give to the interface as better integration with the desktop as possible.
For future Squeak images, as soon as the license issue is finished, we can work on different images. At Extremadura we have been working on customizing the image with a more updated interface, more eyecandy and adding projects from all around the world (Germany, Japan, Spain & USA) with a lot of educative tools. The project and the image is available at http://squeak.educarex.es. We have also made some interactive books for maths with the image. Those images are used in our school and will be uploaded to Debian when possible.
So, in brief, today smalltalk developers are needed to recode the small part of code that has not been relicensed yet. There are some voices that say that FSF allows releasing under a free license if the percentage of code without the license is lower than 5%. If that were true it could be done today, but nobody is sure about it.
Regards. José L.
A Fedora developer recently pointed out the mix of licenses in the VM source code:
Also note, significant portions of this package appear to be dual licensed under the LGPLv2.1+ and the Squeak license, neither of which are MIT.
./platforms/Cross/plugins/JPEGReadWriter2Plugin/jcomapi.c notes it is licensed and to read a README file, but no such file exists (contrary to the Independent JPEG Group's license). It might be considered free enough, but that's not entirely clear.
There's a boatload of MP3 plugin code here. MP3 is patented.
./platforms/Cross/plugins/SoundCodecPrims/ is missing a COPYRIGHT file containing the license for code in that dir too.
There's a lot of stuff under a Sun copyright with a permissive license.
There's stuff under the Squeak license, not dual-licensed.
There's Perl-Compatible-Regular-Expressions which is yet another license...
There's GPLv2+ code in ./platforms/unix/plugins/VideoForLinuxPlugin/ ccvt_types.h
(from https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=247983)
We intend to clean this up, which may well end up removing code. If this hurts anyone, they'll surely implement a replacement ;)
- Bert -
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be available in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.html has the details for it.
As Bert suggested, dealing with the difference licenses in the sources has been the worst part of the packaging. I hope the package will be useful, I've tried to make it fully compatible with current packaging schema in squeak.org, but has added some things to make it more desktop friendly, thinking more in the teachers and students than in the developers who don't use to have problems in managing it.
Regards. José L.
P.S. The package contains a patch to fix a 64 bits problem and a license file that was lost in the svn, so maybe somebody with access to the upstream svn could upload these patches.
2008/2/26, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On Feb 26, 2008, at 12:43 , Damien Pollet wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: José L. Redrejo Rodríguez jredrejo@edu.juntaextremadura.net Date: Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Web page with status of squeak license issue resolution? To: Petter Reinholdtsen pere@hungry.com Cc: Damien Pollet damien.pollet@gmail.com, debian- edu@lists.debian.org
El mar, 26-02-2008 a las 08:29 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen escribió:
Hi. We spoke together after your lightning talk on FOSDEM about getting squeak into Debian. You mentioned that there is slow progress in getting the license question resolved, but that it is a lot of work. Is there a web page documenting the status of this work? Like who need to be contacted, who is already contacted and who is left to contact?
As I mentioned earlier, we in the Debian Edu community are interested in including squeak into our distribution, and for this reason want to see it in Debian/main. CC to our list to keep the other maintainers updated on the squeak status.
I've found URL:http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/159 and URL:http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3733 but did not see any information there about the work on contacting previous authors to get them to agree on a relicensing.
Those page are obsolete. The relicensing process is described and updated at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6016
As the part of code that has not been relicensed is because contacting the authors has not been possible, current plans are rewritting that part of code.
About taking Squeak in Debian, I have an ITP over the squeak virtual machine (#454635) and I plan to upload it as soon as I have time to finish a couple of pending patches for 64 bits platforms. There are different ways to use Squeak, people from squeak.org are more focused in using squeak as a development tool, and people from squeakland.org are more focused in using it for kids and teaching and currently working on the OLPC project. My intention is to do the squeak-vm interface oriented to teachers and students and give to the interface as better integration with the desktop as possible.
For future Squeak images, as soon as the license issue is finished, we can work on different images. At Extremadura we have been working on customizing the image with a more updated interface, more eyecandy and adding projects from all around the world (Germany, Japan, Spain & USA) with a lot of educative tools. The project and the image is available at http://squeak.educarex.es. We have also made some interactive books for maths with the image. Those images are used in our school and will be uploaded to Debian when possible.
So, in brief, today smalltalk developers are needed to recode the small part of code that has not been relicensed yet. There are some voices that say that FSF allows releasing under a free license if the percentage of code without the license is lower than 5%. If that were true it could be done today, but nobody is sure about it.
Regards. José L.
A Fedora developer recently pointed out the mix of licenses in the VM source code:
Also note, significant portions of this package appear to be dual licensed under the LGPLv2.1+ and the Squeak license, neither of which are MIT.
./platforms/Cross/plugins/JPEGReadWriter2Plugin/jcomapi.c notes it is licensed and to read a README file, but no such file exists (contrary to the Independent JPEG Group's license). It might be considered free enough, but that's not entirely clear.
There's a boatload of MP3 plugin code here. MP3 is patented.
./platforms/Cross/plugins/SoundCodecPrims/ is missing a COPYRIGHT file containing the license for code in that dir too.
There's a lot of stuff under a Sun copyright with a permissive license.
There's stuff under the Squeak license, not dual-licensed.
There's Perl-Compatible-Regular-Expressions which is yet another license...
There's GPLv2+ code in ./platforms/unix/plugins/VideoForLinuxPlugin/ ccvt_types.h
(from https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=247983)
We intend to clean this up, which may well end up removing code. If this hurts anyone, they'll surely implement a replacement ;)
- Bert -
On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 16:05 +0100, José Luis Redrejo wrote:
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be available in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.html has the details for it.
This is good news. Unfortunately the link does not work. There is no squeak page in /new/
regards,
Norbert
2008/3/16, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name:
On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 16:05 +0100, José Luis Redrejo wrote:
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be available in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.html has the details for it.
This is good news. Unfortunately the link does not work. There is no squeak page in /new/
regards,
It's not anymore in /new/ as it has already been accepted. Right now it's at http://incoming.debian.org/ . After that, it will be at ftp.debian.org and later in the mirrors.
Cheers.
José L.
Norbert
José Luis Redrejo a écrit :
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be available in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.html has the details for it.
does this vm have the MIDI plugin ?
Stef
Yes, the only plugin removed from the current svn sources is MPEG3Plugin. All the info on the changes done to the upstream sources are at http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/s/squeak-vm/squeak-vm_3.9.12...
Regards. José L.
2008/3/16, Stéphane Rollandin lecteur@zogotounga.net:
José Luis Redrejo a écrit :
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be
available
in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.htmlhas the details for it.
does this vm have the MIDI plugin ?
Stef
Ok, it's worth mentioning then that via funding from Viewpoints Research Institute, Inc I am working on a GStreamer plugin for squeak in order to address video licensing issues on linux based machines, aka OLPC.
http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/
With a target completion date the end of March.
Although the standard set of GStreamer features does not support MPEG, those patent encumbered codecs are GStreamer loadable options.
How this will be supported on os-x and windows is unknown since loading GStreamer on os-x is an all morning affair.
On Mar 17, 2008, at 1:38 AM, José Luis Redrejo wrote:
Yes, the only plugin removed from the current svn sources is MPEG3Plugin. All the info on the changes done to the upstream sources are at http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/s/squeak-vm/squeak-vm_3.9.12...
Regards. José L.
2008/3/16, Stéphane Rollandin lecteur@zogotounga.net: José Luis Redrejo a écrit :
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be
available
in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.html
has
the details for it.
does this vm have the MIDI plugin ?
Stef
-- = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh johnmci@smalltalkconsulting.com Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ========================================================================
2008/3/18, John M McIntosh johnmci@smalltalkconsulting.com:
Ok, it's worth mentioning then that via funding from Viewpoints Research Institute, Inc I am working on a GStreamer plugin for squeak in order to address video licensing issues on linux based machines, aka OLPC.
http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/
With a target completion date the end of March.
Although the standard set of GStreamer features does not support MPEG, those patent encumbered codecs are GStreamer loadable options.
Great, gstreamer would allow many video sources. I'm thinking not only on mpeg, even flv video could be used, so we could watch youtube from Squeak :-D
I just would like to ask this plugin and others as dbus and tome plugins to be included in the main squeak vm branch. It does not make too much sense having these features and not being included in the "official" unix vm image. The dbus plugin could be kept appart as it's mostly for olpc features, but it does not make any damage including it in the main vm and would let the linux users having the same vm for any computer, including olpc.
Regards.
How this will be supported on os-x and windows is unknown since
loading GStreamer on os-x is an all morning affair.
On Mar 17, 2008, at 1:38 AM, José Luis Redrejo wrote:
Yes, the only plugin removed from the current svn sources is MPEG3Plugin. All the info on the changes done to the upstream sources are at
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/s/squeak-vm/squeak-vm_3.9.12...
Regards. José L.
2008/3/16, Stéphane Rollandin lecteur@zogotounga.net: José Luis Redrejo a écrit :
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian. It will be
available
in the archives and mirrors tonight. In the meantime, http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/squeak-vm_3.9.12+svn1820.dfsg-1.html
has
the details for it.
does this vm have the MIDI plugin ?
Stef
-- = = = ========================================================================
John M. McIntosh johnmci@smalltalkconsulting.com Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ========================================================================
On Mar 18, 2008, at 20:36 , José Luis Redrejo wrote:
I just would like to ask this plugin and others as dbus and tome plugins to be included in the main squeak vm branch. It does not make too much sense having these features and not being included in the "official" unix vm image. The dbus plugin could be kept appart as it's mostly for olpc features, but it does not make any damage including it in the main vm and would let the linux users having the same vm for any computer, including olpc.
This is the plan. It's simply that work on the OLPC branch is progressing much faster right now than on the official VM. All of this is intended to be folded back to the main line.
- Bert -
I missed this thread, caught it on the planet, and am reposting with a new subject as it's quite a milestone for Squeak. Thank you José and other contributors.
-Simon
José Luis Redrejo wrote:
squeak-vm has just been officially accepted in Debian.
...
As Bert suggested, dealing with the difference licenses in the sources has been the worst part of the packaging. I hope the package will be useful, I've tried to make it fully compatible with current packaging schema in squeak.org http://squeak.org, but has added some things to make it more desktop friendly, thinking more in the teachers and students than in the developers who don't use to have problems in managing it.
Regards. José L.
P.S. The package contains a patch to fix a 64 bits problem and a license file that was lost in the svn, so maybe somebody with access to the upstream svn could upload these patches.
...
Yes, the only plugin removed from the current svn sources is MPEG3Plugin. All the info on the changes done to the upstream sources are at
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/s/squeak-vm/squeak-vm_3.9.12...
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Damien Pollet -
John M McIntosh -
José Luis Redrejo -
Norbert Hartl -
Simon Michael -
Stéphane Rollandin