Hi all--
For October, Squackers[1] will celebrate Squeak's tenth birthday at Dan Ingalls's place near Santa Cruz, CA, USA, on Saturday the seventh[2]. We'll start by hanging out at the beach in the afternoon, then head up to Dan's for a barbeque and further merriment (and we might be found on the Squeak IRC channel around 7pm GMT-7, see [3]).
If you think you'll be able to make it, please let me know! And please forward this message to others you think might be interested.
take care,
-C
[1] Squackers is a group of Squeak hackers in the San Francisco bay area who get together once a month to have a good time and show off what they're up to with Squeak (including learning it).
[2] ...the October Saturday nearest the traditional birthday of 1 October, the date Dan announced Squeak to comp.lang.smalltalk (see http://tinyurl.com/gqdhv for the original message).
[3] http://users.squeak.org/irc
Craig wrote...
For October, Squackers[1] will celebrate Squeak's tenth birthday atDan Ingalls's place near Santa Cruz, CA, USA, on Saturday the seventh[2]. We'll start by hanging out at the beach in the afternoon, then head up to Dan's for a barbeque and further merriment (and we might be found on the Squeak IRC channel around 7pm GMT-7, see [3]).
If you think you'll be able to make it, please let me know! Andplease forward this message to others you think might be interested.
take care,-C
Folks -
I think it might be nice to spend a bit of time strategizing about Strongtalk and Squeak (if we can wait until then). Also I might talk a bit about my whacky project to do a self-supporting kernel in JavaScript, and if Ian can make it he might talk about his new VM that should run both JavaScript and Squeak, and what's cool about that.
If you are coming, please drop me a line so I can explain about parking and other silly details.
- Dan
[1] Squackers is a group of Squeak hackers in the San Francisco bay area who get together once a month to have a good time and show off what they're up to with Squeak (including learning it).
[2] ...the October Saturday nearest the traditional birthday of 1 October, the date Dan announced Squeak to comp.lang.smalltalk (see http://tinyurl.com/gqdhv for the original message).
[3] http://users.squeak.org/irc
-- Craig Latta http://netjam.org/resume
Dan
do you have plan to release your java squeak virtual machine?
Stef On 15 sept. 06, at 07:29, Dan Ingalls wrote:
Craig wrote...
For October, Squackers[1] will celebrate Squeak's tenthbirthday at Dan Ingalls's place near Santa Cruz, CA, USA, on Saturday the seventh[2]. We'll start by hanging out at the beach in the afternoon, then head up to Dan's for a barbeque and further merriment (and we might be found on the Squeak IRC channel around 7pm GMT-7, see [3]).
If you think you'll be able to make it, please let me know! Andplease forward this message to others you think might be interested.
take care,-C
Folks -
I think it might be nice to spend a bit of time strategizing about Strongtalk and Squeak (if we can wait until then). Also I might talk a bit about my whacky project to do a self-supporting kernel in JavaScript, and if Ian can make it he might talk about his new VM that should run both JavaScript and Squeak, and what's cool about that.
If you are coming, please drop me a line so I can explain about parking and other silly details.
- Dan
[1] Squackers is a group of Squeak hackers in the San Francisco bay area who get together once a month to have a good time and show off what they're up to with Squeak (including learning it).
[2] ...the October Saturday nearest the traditional birthday of 1 October, the date Dan announced Squeak to comp.lang.smalltalk (see http://tinyurl.com/gqdhv for the original message).
[3] http://users.squeak.org/irc
-- Craig Latta http://netjam.org/resume
Dan
do you have plan to release your java squeak virtual machine?
Stef
Absolutely. It's only my distaste for red tape that has delayed this. Keep pestering me mercilessly, (but don't burden the list). I will take the first step by Wednesday and report a time estimate by Friday. I'm sure that it will clear, and am thus happy to send the code confidentially to anyone who cares in the meantime.
Further discussion off-list, OK?
- Dan
Hi Dan,
You wrote:
I think it might be nice to spend a bit of time strategizing about
Strongtalk
and Squeak (if we can wait until then).
You also had written:
I just caught this on the Strongtalk mailing list, and thought that it may be of interest to some of you. See http://www.strongtalk.org for more info.
This could be the most important thing to happen in the Smalltalk community in years. The Strongtalk VM was faster than any other when it was written, and I believe it is still comparable to the VisualWorks VM (it would be fun to test).
One could ignore the type system and simply port all of Squeak into Strongtalk
More conservatively, how hard would it be to port Pavel's KernelImage to StrongTalk and turn it into S3 (tm) (Strong Small Squeak ;-)
(of course there are parts of Strongtalk that are better and should not be lost ;-). Then, or in the process, if one did a tasteful job of supporting the types optionally (ie a browser switch to show them or not), it would be the first opportunity to have the best of both worlds in Smalltalk -- or anywhere for that matter.
The Strongtalk VM is organized as a high-performance interpreter (2-3 times Squeak speed, I believe), and an inlining JIT that achieves roughly 6x Squeak speed. Gilad reports the following on his Intel Mac:
Squeak 3.8 345,712,356 bytecodes/sec; 7,855,215 sends/sec Strongtalk 1,805,996,472 bytecodes/sec; 48,075,256 sends/sec
My mind reels at these numbers. Moreover Robert Griesemer had a design for an even better JIT and, if this became an active project, I bet he would help out.
Strongtalk is set up to support native windows, and it probably makes sense to keep it that way, but this would be a parting of the ways from Squeak's run-anywhere agility. It would be nice to introduce a layer in the UI with a separate bitblt-only implementation to retain extreme portability.
and once there is a strong and small Squeak with an even better JIT, supports for various Squeak's GUIs would have a better chance of becoming a reality.
Isn't it a concensus, by now, that it is much more easier to understand and work with a smaller and robust code base.
The VM is not simple -- it is a large body of C++ code. However it was written by smart people and is well-organized (I haven't looked through it carefully). It probably has some bugs,
Some mechanism to support Squeak' named primitives ?
It is so excited to think of S3 with Assember, Compiler..., and of course, Interpreter, ObjectMemory and Primitive plugins ;-).
and it may take some archaeology to get it all to compile with the latest tools.
I think VS6 can accept VS5 project file, from there it can get straight to VS8 (aka VS 2005).
The C++ codes can be compiled as managed code and, for now, the object files from the Turbo assembly code can be bundled into one classic dll and used through platform invoke mechanism (or the machine code can be coded into some Forth words ;-).
That said, I think there would be a tremendous reward for doing the work.
Definitely !
And a clean slate for licensing issue as a bonus ?
There is also news that David Griswold will port StrongTalk VM to run Squeak byte codes. This would be great.
It doesn't hurt to have some fresh air and healthy competitions ;-)
The children will have more than one Squeak to choose from.
It is horrible to think of a mess of half cooked, rotten, prototyped bits and bites being thrusted down the throats of the kids !!!
The ironman engineering of Strongtalk seems a perfect match
for Squeak's cheerful insouciance.
Hmm, what was the expression ?
Ahh, is it "straight from the Horse's Mouth" ;-)
Cheers,
SmallSqueak
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Ingalls" Dan@SqueakLand.org Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.general Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:29 AM Subject: Re: Squackers, Tenth-Birthday-of-Squeak edition
Craig wrote...
For October, Squackers[1] will celebrate Squeak's tenth birthday atDan Ingalls's place near Santa Cruz, CA, USA, on Saturday the seventh[2]. We'll start by hanging out at the beach in the afternoon, then head up to Dan's for a barbeque and further merriment (and we might be found on the Squeak IRC channel around 7pm GMT-7, see [3]).
If you think you'll be able to make it, please let me know! Andplease forward this message to others you think might be interested.
take care,-C
Folks -
I think it might be nice to spend a bit of time strategizing about
Strongtalk and Squeak (if we can wait until then). Also I might talk a bit about my whacky project to do a self-supporting kernel in JavaScript, and if Ian can make it he might talk about his new VM that should run both JavaScript and Squeak, and what's cool about that.
If you are coming, please drop me a line so I can explain about parking
and other silly details.
- Dan
[1] Squackers is a group of Squeak hackers in the San Francisco bay area who get together once a month to have a good time and show off what they're up to with Squeak (including learning it).
[2] ...the October Saturday nearest the traditional birthday of 1 October, the date Dan announced Squeak to comp.lang.smalltalk (see http://tinyurl.com/gqdhv for the original message).
[3] http://users.squeak.org/irc
-- Craig Latta http://netjam.org/resume
I wrote a while ago...
The ironman engineering of Strongtalk seems a perfect match for Squeak's cheerful insouciance.
and SmallSqueak responded (on the Squackers thread)...
Hmm, what was the expression ? Ahh, is it "straight from the Horse's Mouth" ;-)
...and hopefully not the other end, right? ;-).
It has been interesting to me to read the discussion here.
Most heartening is the warm support for Exupery, not only because it is from our community, but also because it is in the Squeak tradition of keeping things as metacircular (ie in Squeak itself) as possible. I agree that it would be a mistake to undermine Exupery by whatever we did with Strongtalk. It's my hope that we can continue to incorporate any improvements for performance in a Squeak-style framework as Bryce is doing with Exupery.
At the very least, Strongtalk can be taken as a living textbook on bold steps with Smalltalk, from which we can learn a great deal. Just a few that come to mind:
An optional type system I don't like having to declare types when I'm hacking, but I wouldn't mind a button in the browser that revealed them when I clicked on it. Plus people here have pointed out the extra leverage for refactoring. And in a novice scripting world, types and type inference (unseen) can provide extra leverage for the system to suggest valid options.
Elimination of most global static state We keep talking about it but never doing it.
A kick-butt interpreter I don't know how it compares with Exupery, but I think it's nearly three times as fast as Squeak. I think there are tricks to learn from the way they assemble native code snippets to build the interpreter.
A mature Mixin system which is useful to compare with Traits.
And, of course, the type-feedback inlining compiler This is what puts Strongtalk in the "ironman" category. Again there is much to learn here. it would be great to see this done in Squeak itself, as we have been mumbling for several years.
Special optimization for floats This translates into the ability to do serious graphics without needing as much code to be in primitives. Their float benchmark is extraordinary.
The passion behind my earlier post was simply in the space of Smalltalk community synergy. I look on this as a sort of celestial event -- I thought Strongtalk was the coolest thing ever done with Smalltalk (that and Self), I though it was dead with the added agony of having been buried alive, and suddenly the coffin lid has been raised and it is breathing again! All of this at a time when dynamic languages are experiencing somewhat of a revival in popularity.
And I'm thinking, what if there's some kind of opportunity for another run at the fence -- some sort of scheme that opened the door for Pearl, Python, Lisp, Ruby, JavaScript and Smalltalk all to vie for being, say, the core dynamic language around which most Internet software would be written...
...Wouldn't it be cool if we could point not only to decades worth of cool media support, tutorials, games and development tools but also, a deployment engine that rivals the best in the industry.
It appears that there is enough of a community around Strongtalk to at least get it running again regardless of what we do. But I felt (and thus the quote from before) that there was might be some low-hanging fruit worth reaching for, and that the result, independent of technical impact, would be to build the synergy of these two beautifully complementary communities, and thus strengthen the backbone of Smalltalk itself going forward.
The simplest project I had in mind (if I weren't already swamped (I know; we all are...)) was just to port Squeak's BitBlt to Strongtalk, fileIn all of Squeak (yes, this will take 206 tries ;-) make each native Strongtalk window into a Morphic project, and see how it all works. Ideally this could be done carefully and a "bridge" procedure developed so that when the next Strongtalk or the next Squeak is released, someone can fairly easily prepare a corresponding StrongSqueak release.
Then there would be lots of fun stuff to do -- get speech and music going well, see how well Croquet runs with the fast float support. See how many primitives can be thrown away in the faster system, etc., etc.
How hard would this be? I don't know. My guess is that this could all be done without even touching the VM, just by simulating a Morphic canvas in the Strongtalk world. A lot more fun than the Sunday puzzle page, at least.
- Dan
At the very least, Strongtalk can be taken as a living textbook on bold steps with Smalltalk, from which we can learn a great deal. Just a few that come to mind:
An optional type system I don't like having to declare types when I'm hacking, but I wouldn't mind a button in the browser that revealed them when I clicked on it. Plus people here have pointed out the extra leverage for refactoring. And in a novice scripting world, types and type inference (unseen) can provide extra leverage for the system to suggest valid options.
yes I really hope that one of the people working on that will deliver soon :)
Elimination of most global static state We keep talking about it but never doing it.
Can you explain a bit more dan?
A kick-butt interpreter I don't know how it compares with Exupery, but I think it's nearly three times as fast as Squeak. I think there are tricks to learn from the way they assemble native code snippets to build the interpreter.
A mature Mixin system which is useful to compare with Traits.
:) Dan read the paper of TOPLAS on my web page. Traits are cooler :) But we really got influenced by Strongtalk. We met Gilad before Strongtalk before it was public and I was the nasty that launched this public gathering of signature to have strongtalk open-sourced ;)
And, of course, the type-feedback inlining compiler This is what puts Strongtalk in the "ironman" category. Again there is much to learn here. it would be great to see this done in Squeak itself, as we have been mumbling for several years.
:)
Special optimization for floats This translates into the ability to do serious graphics without needing as much code to be in primitives. Their float benchmark is extraordinary.
The passion behind my earlier post was simply in the space of Smalltalk community synergy. I look on this as a sort of celestial event -- I thought Strongtalk was the coolest thing ever done with Smalltalk (that and Self), I though it was dead with the added agony of having been buried alive, and suddenly the coffin lid has been raised and it is breathing again! All of this at a time when dynamic languages are experiencing somewhat of a revival in popularity.
But this is. It would be great to see how we could run squeak on the strongtalk VM too. Even if I do not know the impact of their mixin aware VM. May be traits could gain from that.
Gilad told me that they were doing also clever copy down (only accessors would access state in strongtalk if I understood correctly) so that copied down these methods on the mixin using classes ( since mixin has state and they could be composed arbitrary and we could not garantee a linear order of ivs).
And I'm thinking, what if there's some kind of opportunity for another run at the fence -- some sort of scheme that opened the door for Pearl, Python, Lisp, Ruby, JavaScript and Smalltalk all to vie for being, say, the core dynamic language around which most Internet software would be written...
...Wouldn't it be cool if we could point not only to decades worth of cool media support, tutorials, games and development tools but also, a deployment engine that rivals the best in the industry.
where should we sign for you to jump into it. I think that it would be good to get some young blood there too. And we should really propose a Summertalk around that topic next year (assuming that we will find a mentor willing to emails with a young smart guy).
It appears that there is enough of a community around Strongtalk to at least get it running again regardless of what we do. But I felt (and thus the quote from before) that there was might be some low- hanging fruit worth reaching for, and that the result, independent of technical impact, would be to build the synergy of these two beautifully complementary communities, and thus strengthen the backbone of Smalltalk itself going forward.
I agree!
The simplest project I had in mind (if I weren't already swamped (I know; we all are...)) was just to port Squeak's BitBlt to Strongtalk, fileIn all of Squeak (yes, this will take 206 tries ;-) make each native Strongtalk window into a Morphic project, and see how it all works. Ideally this could be done carefully and a "bridge" procedure developed so that when the next Strongtalk or the next Squeak is released, someone can fairly easily prepare a corresponding StrongSqueak release.
Then there would be lots of fun stuff to do -- get speech and music going well, see how well Croquet runs with the fast float support. See how many primitives can be thrown away in the faster system, etc., etc.
How hard would this be? I don't know. My guess is that this could all be done without even touching the VM, just by simulating a Morphic canvas in the Strongtalk world. A lot more fun than the Sunday puzzle page, at least.
:)
- Dan
Hi, Stef -
Elimination of most global static state We keep talking about it but never doing it.
Getting rid of Pools, and dropping metaclass instVars
A mature Mixin system which is useful to compare with Traits.
:) Dan read the paper of TOPLAS on my web page. Traits are cooler :) But we really got influenced by Strongtalk. We met Gilad before Strongtalk before it was public and I was the nasty that launched this public gathering of signature to have strongtalk open-sourced ;)
Thanks for your part, then. One or two other factors were critical as well ;-).
It would be great to see how we could run squeak on the strongtalk VM too. Even if I do not know the impact of their mixin aware VM. May be traits could gain from that.
Gilad told me that they were doing also clever copy down (only accessors would access state in strongtalk if I understood correctly) so that copied down these methods on the mixin using classes ( since mixin has state and they could be composed arbitrary and we could not garantee a linear order of ivs).
I don't know if the VM is aware of the mixins. What I do know is that all access to inst vars is by messages, and this frees the system from worrying about how inst vars are ordered in a particular concrete class. In an ordinary VM this would add a substantial cost, but the inliner converts these to native access, so there is no extra overhead.
And I'm thinking, what if there's some kind of opportunity for another run at the fence -- some sort of scheme that opened the door for Pearl, Python, Lisp, Ruby, JavaScript and Smalltalk all to vie for being, say, the core dynamic language around which most Internet software would be written...
...Wouldn't it be cool if we could point not only to decades worth of cool media support, tutorials, games and development tools but also, a deployment engine that rivals the best in the industry.
where should we sign for you to jump into it.
I'm (over-) committed right now.
I think that it would be good to get some young blood there too. And we should really propose a Summertalk around that topic next year (assuming that we will find a mentor willing to emails with a young smart guy).
Next summer? !!
Tell ya what... Here's $5000 that says "some smart guy" will do it before the end of 2006. <lays money on table with a bottle of champagne on top> ;-)
It appears that there is enough of a community around Strongtalk to at least get it running again regardless of what we do. But I felt (and thus the quote from before) that there was might be some low-hanging fruit worth reaching for, and that the result, independent of technical impact, would be to build the synergy of these two beautifully complementary communities, and thus strengthen the backbone of Smalltalk itself going forward.
I agree!
The simplest project I had in mind (if I weren't already swamped (I know; we all are...)) was just to port Squeak's BitBlt to Strongtalk, fileIn all of Squeak (yes, this will take 206 tries ;-) make each native Strongtalk window into a Morphic project, and see how it all works. Ideally this could be done carefully and a "bridge" procedure developed so that when the next Strongtalk or the next Squeak is released, someone can fairly easily prepare a corresponding StrongSqueak release.
Then there would be lots of fun stuff to do -- get speech and music going well, see how well Croquet runs with the fast float support. See how many primitives can be thrown away in the faster system, etc., etc.
How hard would this be? I don't know. My guess is that this could all be done without even touching the VM, just by simulating a Morphic canvas in the Strongtalk world. A lot more fun than the Sunday puzzle page, at least.
:)
- Dan
I think that it would be good to get some young blood there too. And we should really propose a Summertalk around that topic next year (assuming that we will find a mentor willing to emails with a young smart guy).
Next summer? !!
Tell ya what... Here's $5000 that says "some smart guy" will do it before the end of 2006.
<lays money on table with a bottle of champagne on top> ;-)
In answer to a question from off-list, this is a *prize being offered*.
- Dan
Resent with changed subject in case someone missed this. Karl Dan Ingalls skrev:
I think that it would be good to get some young blood there too. And we should really propose a Summertalk around that topic next year (assuming that we will find a mentor willing to emails with a young smart guy).
Next summer? !!
Tell ya what... Here's $5000 that says "some smart guy" will do it before the end of 2006.
<lays money on table with a bottle of champagne on top> ;-)
In answer to a question from off-list, this is a *prize being offered*.
- Dan
On 9/26/06, karl karl.ramberg@chello.se wrote:
Resent with changed subject in case someone missed this. Karl Dan Ingalls skrev:
I think that it would be good to get some young blood there too. And
we should really propose a Summertalk around that topic
next year (assuming that we will find a mentor willing to emails with
a young smart guy).
Next summer? !!
Tell ya what... Here's $5000 that says "some smart guy" will do it before the end of
<lays money on table with a bottle of champagne on top> ;-)
In answer to a question from off-list, this is a *prize being offered*.
- Dan
The topic seems to be a mis-quote. He is just betting that some smart guy will do it before the end of the year. It doesn't say that the smart guy will be given the money, or even the champagne. ;)
On 9/26/06, Jason Shoemaker kutsuya@gmail.com wrote:
The topic seems to be a mis-quote. He is just betting that some smart guy will do it before the end of the year. It doesn't say that the smart guy will be given the money, or even the champagne. ;)
From the three lines *directly* above yours:
In answer to a question from off-list, this is a *prize being offered*.
- Dan
So, no, this is not a bet, this is a bounty.
--Benjamin
Benjamin Pollack puso en su mail :
So, no, this is not a bet, this is a bounty.
--Benjamin
If Dan add he travels to any place of world to drink champagne with who wins ... I could start a quest for smart guys in Argentina.
Edgar
Edgar writes:
If Dan add he travels to any place of world to drink champagne with who wins ... I could start a quest for smart guys in Argentina.
It's not just a matter of being smart, but also somewhat masochistic... there's a lot of C++ to deal with in Strongtalk. :)
-C
On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:21 , Craig Latta wrote:
Edgar writes:If Dan add he travels to any place of world to drink champagne with who wins ... I could start a quest for smart guys in Argentina.
It's not just a matter of being smart, but also somewhatmasochistic... there's a lot of C++ to deal with in Strongtalk. :)
..and not just C++, but old C++. Old C++ code and modern, standards- compliant C++ compilers often don't get along too well...
Marcel
Hi Edgar,
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edgar J. De Cleene" edgardec2001@yahoo.com.ar Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.general Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [ANN]Port Squeak to Strongtalk VM for 5000$ Re: Strongtalk VM for Squeak
Benjamin Pollack puso en su mail :
So, no, this is not a bet, this is a bounty.
--Benjamin
If Dan add he travels to any place of world to drink champagne with who wins ... I could start a quest for smart guys in Argentina.
I am sure you will be able to find really smart guys with open mind in Argentina.
I am looking forward to the celebration day, even if Dan cannot make it to Argentina, I will raise my glass over the web cam ;-)
Cheers,
SmallSqueak
P.S: This posting was originally sent out on Sep. 27
Dan,
I am glad to see you and so many others excited about the possibilities that the Strongtalk release brings. The ideas you propose are very good too. So I hate to be the "been there, done that" pessimist and hope that what I write below will just encourage reflection but not cause anybody to give up.
In my experience projects tend to have personalities just as people do and tend to attract some kinds of people more than others. So while there is no technical reason why somebody couldn't write eToys in Python I will be very surprised if it happens, just like I don't really expect to see Squeak become a great Unix scripting environment or embrace native GUI widgets. These things are all possible but they would depend on having people working on such projects who are naturally attracted to different kinds of projects.
Of course you can pay somebody to work on something that they might not seek out on their own, or if you are their thesis advisor you can also get them to do it. My impression is that Craig Chambers and Urs Hölzle were more C++ guys than Smalltalk ones even though they did such fabulous work on the Self VM. This is based on things they said while doing the work, the feeling I get while reading their code and also the direction their carreers went after that project.
The source for the Self VM has been available since 1992. Perhaps the timing was wrong (people used to complain about having to upgrade their Sparcstations from 8MB to 24MB of RAM to run Self) and perhaps now different people are looking into this and will make it work. But my guess is that most people who enjoy Squeak will find the Strongtalk sources tiring and will end up moving on to other projects. I will note that Klein, the Self-in-Self, has also been open sourced and though I haven't looked at it yet I expect it will be far friendlier to Smalltalkers. Even Ian seems to have grown tired of the C world otherwise he would have been my best bet for making something interesting with Strongtalk.
For those Squeakers who do feel they can deal with the pain of a huge C++ system given the rewards that await them I can just say "you have my admiration and my thanks!"
-- Jecel
Dan,
The simplest project I had in mind (if I weren't already swamped (I know; we all are...)) was just to port Squeak's BitBlt to Strongtalk,
How many times, all over your life, did you implemented BitBlt? ;-)
I guess, 10 times?
Cheers,
-- Diego
Folks -
I just found out that there is a Fireworks extravaganza right in front of my house the evening of October 14 so we're moving the (let's be frank) party to that Saturday:
http://www.monte-foundation.com/images/MontePoster2006.jpg
The rest of the plan is the same -- come any time to the beach (see above link for beach activities that day), I'll start the grill at my house around 6, and the fireworks will be around 9-9:30.
Parking will be an issue. Try to car-pool and please let me know that you are coming (off list!) so I can instruct you about parking and provide roughly the right amount of food/drink.
- Dan
Dan,
Let me thank you for Smalltalk and Squeak. Your works are a source of inspiration to me. I learn from your code. I keep re-reading "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk", and watching your lectures on video. I enjoy reading every message you send to this list.
I want to program like you. I want to write like you. I want to think like you.
I first read about Smalltalk in 1984, in one of the very first computer magazines I read. It was like scientifiction. I only found it again ten years later at the university. By then, I had been programming for ten years, and I was completely shocked by Smalltalk. In 1997 I knew about Squeak, and I got my first job in Smalltalk. After that, I never took a job on anything else. Your impact in my life hasn't diminished a bit since then.
I would really love to meet you at Squeak's birthday. I'm sure lots of us would but can't. I hope I'll be able to meet you and to thank you personally.
Happy birthday, Squeak!
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
Dan Ingalls wrote:
Folks -
I just found out that there is a Fireworks extravaganza right in front of my house the evening of October 14 so we're moving the (let's be frank) party to that Saturday:
http://www.monte-foundation.com/images/MontePoster2006.jpgThe rest of the plan is the same -- come any time to the beach (see above link for beach activities that day), I'll start the grill at my house around 6, and the fireworks will be around 9-9:30.
Parking will be an issue. Try to car-pool and please let me know that you are coming (off list!) so I can instruct you about parking and provide roughly the right amount of food/drink.
- Dan
[sorry to be late in responding. I lost Squeak mail access for four days]
Juan Vuletich jvuletich@dc.uba.ar wrote...
Let me thank you for Smalltalk and Squeak. Your works are a source of inspiration to me. I learn from your code. I keep re-reading "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk", and watching your lectures on video. I enjoy reading every message you send to this list.
I want to program like you. I want to write like you. I want to think like you.
I first read about Smalltalk in 1984, in one of the very first computer magazines I read. It was like scientifiction. I only found it again ten years later at the university. By then, I had been programming for ten years, and I was completely shocked by Smalltalk. In 1997 I knew about Squeak, and I got my first job in Smalltalk. After that, I never took a job on anything else. Your impact in my life hasn't diminished a bit since then.
I would really love to meet you at Squeak's birthday. I'm sure lots of us would but can't. I hope I'll be able to meet you and to thank you personally.
Happy birthday, Squeak!
Juan -
Your message warms my heart. Your experience is exactly what all of us who worked on Smalltalk and Squeak hoped for, and still hope for. I accept your thanks for my part -- I am honored. Let us not forget, though, that many people made Smalltalk and Squeak what it is. From Alan's first inspiration, through all the good work that made things practical, and all the cool hacks that have made it so much fun, it has been the work of many wonderful people including the good folks on this list (and you, too, Juan) that have made this such a rewarding project.
I never meant to "take" the 10th birthday; I just felt like having a party, and Craig mentioned the 10 year coincidence. So happy 10th birthday to all Squeakers out there -- you are just as much a part of the celebration regardless of where you are.
- Dan
And, for whatever it's worth, the 40th anniversary of "the shock of objects" (at least to me) will be Nov 11th this year.
Cheers,
Alan
----------------
At 10:44 AM 10/2/2006, Dan Ingalls wrote:
[sorry to be late in responding. I lost Squeak mail access for four days]
Juan Vuletich jvuletich@dc.uba.ar wrote...
Let me thank you for Smalltalk and Squeak. Your works are a source
of inspiration to me. I learn from your code. I keep re-reading "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk", and watching your lectures on video. I enjoy reading every message you send to this list.
I want to program like you. I want to write like you. I want to
think like you.
I first read about Smalltalk in 1984, in one of the very first
computer magazines I read. It was like scientifiction. I only found it again ten years later at the university. By then, I had been programming for ten years, and I was completely shocked by Smalltalk. In 1997 I knew about Squeak, and I got my first job in Smalltalk. After that, I never took a job on anything else. Your impact in my life hasn't diminished a bit since then.
I would really love to meet you at Squeak's birthday. I'm sure
lots of us would but can't. I hope I'll be able to meet you and to thank you personally.
Happy birthday, Squeak!
Juan -
Your message warms my heart. Your experience is exactly what all of us who worked on Smalltalk and Squeak hoped for, and still hope for. I accept your thanks for my part -- I am honored. Let us not forget, though, that many people made Smalltalk and Squeak what it is. From Alan's first inspiration, through all the good work that made things practical, and all the cool hacks that have made it so much fun, it has been the work of many wonderful people including the good folks on this list (and you, too, Juan) that have made this such a rewarding project.
I never meant to "take" the 10th birthday; I just felt like having a party, and Craig mentioned the 10 year coincidence. So happy 10th birthday to all Squeakers out there -- you are just as much a part of the celebration regardless of where you are.
- Dan
Alan Kay wrote:
And, for whatever it's worth, the 40th anniversary of "the shock of objects" (at least to me) will be Nov 11th this year.
Alan, AFAIK, 1966 you were in graduate school. Are you referring to your ideas of utilizing the ability of self-repairing, recursive biological cells to software objects? (Of which, I still find the origins of that idea fascinating.)
Just for "years ending in zero" purposes (imagine if we had no thumbs) ... but, yes. Maybe time for a new paradigm?
Cheers,
Alan
At 01:53 PM 10/2/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
And, for whatever it's worth, the 40th anniversary of "the shock of objects" (at least to me) will be Nov 11th this year.
Alan, AFAIK, 1966 you were in graduate school. Are you referring to your ideas of utilizing the ability of self-repairing, recursive biological cells to software objects? (Of which, I still find the origins of that idea fascinating.)
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2184
thumbs) ... but, yes. Maybe time for a new paradigm?
We have a chance to let Object Orientation be the last paradigm, and focus on understanding/teaching the limits of the OO method and promote people to use senses to know the concecuences of the application of the method. Imho, all efforts done on children are good but not enough if adults do not consider the concecuences of application of object orientation (childs grow, but to become adults... adapted to anAdult by instruction). We all have in Smalltalk a support to understand, learn and promote activities where the limits of formal development are exposed and a chance to see more than a language (or formula/design). There has been a huge investment in promoting smalltalk as a medium to take a new path in systems development (and understanding), but imo, from the very first papers (like "The design principles behing Smalltalk") upto today, the use of smalltalk as an open system has not been promoted (social constrains?). Under this consideration, I see that smalltalk has overpassed it designer´s limits, and most of the people using it are not working on the new ways of acting in an open system. Most of the efforts are put on formal and atomicist formulations (I think that it may be related with newcommers of smalltalk community). A new paradigm can be formulated, using or negating objects/messages, but I think that it will be another formula/idea that will promote new ideals e.g. will hide the limits of The Method (again). To not to repeat the same as usual is also an option, but requires to be free (most people expect a new formula to be repeated/promoted). cheers, Ale.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Kay" alan.kay@squeakland.org To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org; "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Squackers, Tenth-Birthday-of-Squeak edition - Fireworks!!
Just for "years ending in zero" purposes (imagine if we had no thumbs) ... but, yes. Maybe time for a new paradigm?
Cheers,
Alan
At 01:53 PM 10/2/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
And, for whatever it's worth, the 40th anniversary of "the shock of objects" (at least to me) will be Nov 11th this year.
Alan, AFAIK, 1966 you were in graduate school. Are you referring to your ideas of utilizing the ability of self-repairing, recursive biological cells to software objects? (Of which, I still find the origins of that idea fascinating.)
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2184
On Oct 3, 2006, at 15:32 , Alejandro F. Reimondo wrote:
There has been a huge investment in promoting smalltalk as a medium to take a new path in systems development (and understanding), but imo, from the very first papers (like "The design principles behing Smalltalk") upto today, the use of smalltalk as an open system has not been promoted (social constrains?).
Well, it really isn't all that open of a system these days, it is very much a closed world onto itself. This state of affairs is absolutely understandable, historically, because at the time it was created, Smalltalk could be the whole world as there wasn't much else out there to connect to. However, the changes in the outside world since 1980 (or '76 or '72) have been dramatic, and that is probably understating it.
I don't think "extending" Smalltalk(s) will do the trick, I think "refactoring" is the very least that needs to be done.
Marcel
Alan writes:
Maybe time for a new paradigm?
New paradigms are always welcome, there's no need to wait for old ones to languish. At the same time, I don't think an idea is necessarily spent simply because it has reached a certain age, nor that an idea must displace others to achieve success (though that often happens). We have fallen far short of realizing the potential of the objects idea. That doesn't make the idea obsolete, either.
So much for what I don't think... What I do think is that a thorough implementation of the idea would be fun, enlightening, and extremely useful, so it's one of the things I pursue. I think this because of what we *have* managed to achieve so far; it's good enough not only to criticize but also for inspiration.
Oh, and adults matter too. :)
-C
Hi Craig --
At 11:10 AM 10/3/2006, Craig Latta wrote:
Alan writes:Maybe time for a new paradigm?
New paradigms are always welcome, there's no need to wait for oldones to languish. At the same time, I don't think an idea is necessarily spent simply because it has reached a certain age, nor that an idea must displace others to achieve success (though that often happens). We have fallen far short of realizing the potential of the objects idea. That doesn't make the idea obsolete, either.
Oh, I think objects is still a pretty good idea ...
So much for what I don't think... What I do think is that athorough implementation of the idea would be fun, enlightening, and extremely useful, so it's one of the things I pursue. I think this because of what we *have* managed to achieve so far; it's good enough not only to criticize but also for inspiration.
Oh, and adults matter too. :)
That's precisely why I worry about helping children learn to think better ...
Cheers,
Alan
-C
-- Craig Latta http://netjam.org/resume
Hi Alan,
I saw this really interesting project in India called: http://www.hole-in-the-wall.com/ May be you've already heard about it.
There might be some synergy between your efforts and this project?
Thank you for making the world a better place.
-bakki
On 10/3/06, Alan Kay alan.kay@squeakland.org wrote:
That's precisely why I worry about helping children learn to think better ...
Oh, and adults matter too. :)
That's precisely why I worry about helping children learn to think better ...
I believe you missed my point, oh ellipsis-wielding one. :) I'm saying we should remain engaged with those children after they have become adults, rather than give all our attention to the children of the moment.
In particular, making systems that are usable by adults (including being joyously hackable all the way down) is just as important. Yes, eToys is lovely, but under the hood is a bloody mess, and that's inexcusable.
-C
Alan Kay wrote:
Just for "years ending in zero" purposes (imagine if we had no thumbs) ... but, yes. Maybe time for a new paradigm?
I always thought how objects communicated to be interesting. I think of water or air as both a way to touch, communicate and connect with other objects, and at the same time, a carrier of objects to remote destinations. There is just something wonderful about the flow between real-life objects. Water can exist in many forms and it can carry objects to many places - it has a way of getting in the way of humans; and it's hard to control, no matter how hard we try... certainly more redundant than the Internet!
Same with air, it can carry sound waves that could be music or noise - of which the quality is listener dependent :-) It can have disastrous effects too - like carrying deadly spores.
So, while I think encapsulated objects in software design is productive and fun, I don't think we spend enough time inventing new ways to communicate between objects. Or, at least I don't spend enough time thinking about it. Most likely, I'm naive about it.
brad
At 01:53 PM 10/2/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
And, for whatever it's worth, the 40th anniversary of "the shock of objects" (at least to me) will be Nov 11th this year.
Alan, AFAIK, 1966 you were in graduate school. Are you referring to your ideas of utilizing the ability of self-repairing, recursive biological cells to software objects? (Of which, I still find the origins of that idea fascinating.)
On Oct 3, 2006, at 3:46 , Alan Kay wrote:
Just for "years ending in zero" purposes (imagine if we had no thumbs) ... but, yes. Maybe time for a new paradigm?
Or maybe its time to apply "objects" to the idea of "new paradigm", and start composing, refining, abstracting, refactoring our current "paradigm(s)"? Maybe we need some arches?
Marcel
Of course I acknowledge as you say Dan. Anyway, nobody can deny the enormous impact on your way to think and design software.
There is really no need to say that my thanks are also for you, Alan. Your writings and lectures I enjoy often too! It is just that I was lucky enough and you were kind enough to let me thank you personally when we met in L.A. in 2003.
There is something else I didn't say in my previous post.
When I learned about Smalltalk in 1995, and read the Purple Book, the story of Smalltalk and Xerox Parc was something like a legend. And you were the heroes of an epic story of a previous time. You were like Prometheus, trying to give people the sacred fire.
And suddenly, you were back with Squeak! The story wasn't finished yet, and you were inviting me (all us) to be part of it, and share the fire with you. The feelings I had at that time are within the strongest I've ever had.
Thank you for the Fire!
Cheers, Juan Vuletich
Alan Kay wrote:
And, for whatever it's worth, the 40th anniversary of "the shock of objects" (at least to me) will be Nov 11th this year.
Cheers,
Alan
At 10:44 AM 10/2/2006, Dan Ingalls wrote:
[sorry to be late in responding. I lost Squeak mail access for four days]
Juan Vuletich jvuletich@dc.uba.ar wrote...
Let me thank you for Smalltalk and Squeak. Your works are a source
of inspiration to me. I learn from your code. I keep re-reading "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk", and watching your lectures on video. I enjoy reading every message you send to this list.
I want to program like you. I want to write like you. I want to
think like you.
I first read about Smalltalk in 1984, in one of the very first
computer magazines I read. It was like scientifiction. I only found it again ten years later at the university. By then, I had been programming for ten years, and I was completely shocked by Smalltalk. In 1997 I knew about Squeak, and I got my first job in Smalltalk. After that, I never took a job on anything else. Your impact in my life hasn't diminished a bit since then.
I would really love to meet you at Squeak's birthday. I'm sure lots
of us would but can't. I hope I'll be able to meet you and to thank you personally.
Happy birthday, Squeak!
Juan -
Your message warms my heart. Your experience is exactly what all of us who worked on Smalltalk and Squeak hoped for, and still hope for. I accept your thanks for my part -- I am honored. Let us not forget, though, that many people made Smalltalk and Squeak what it is. From Alan's first inspiration, through all the good work that made things practical, and all the cool hacks that have made it so much fun, it has been the work of many wonderful people including the good folks on this list (and you, too, Juan) that have made this such a rewarding project.
I never meant to "take" the 10th birthday; I just felt like having a party, and Craig mentioned the 10 year coincidence. So happy 10th birthday to all Squeakers out there -- you are just as much a part of the celebration regardless of where you are.
- Dan
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Alan Kay -
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Bakki Kudva -
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Edgar J. De Cleene -
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Jecel Assumpcao Jr -
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stephane ducasse