Hi all
Happy new years. I wish you a lot of fun and success for your squeaking projects.
Now I would like to know if this is possible to fix the squeak web site. I was a nice idea to put the news seeds in the web site but but but. - we do not control the contents - some of them are not really squeaking - some of them contain a lot of typos.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...." Sorry but I do not know who is mathieu :) and this give me the impression to get in a private discussion.
I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org/ on important documents. So could we ut the welcome section right on the top. and the news after the portal.
Stef
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi all
Happy new years. I wish you a lot of fun and success for your squeaking projects.
Now I would like to know if this is possible to fix the squeak web site. I was a nice idea to put the news seeds in the web site but but but. - we do not control the contents - some of them are not really squeaking - some of them contain a lot of typos.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d ObjectsHoward Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...." Sorry but I do not know who is mathieu :) and this give me the impression to get in a private discussion.
I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org/ on important documents. So could we ut the welcome section right on the top. and the news after the portal.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly. Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
This is a question of style. The news can be something else than the first item that we read. But ok I will remove all my links to squeak.org. I do not want to get burnt by that.
Stef
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
First let me say that I'm delighted that others care about what the website looks like!
I assume that visitors with varying degrees of expertise visit the squeak.org top page. I think the question we should ask is what information should we deliver, and how should we deliver that information, to be the best service for the visitors. There are a few issue here that make this a challenge for us. I'm sure there are more.
- First, I don't think we know who those visitors are. For instance, what is their expertise level and why they are at squeak.org? What are they searching for?
- Another issue is should the site be a dynamic site, or a site where the information doesn't necessarily change much.
- Yet another issue is that we are but a few volunteers, and the list is getting smaller to help with the site.
I take away from these recent posts that you believe the visitors are are new to squeak and are searching to find out more. Is that right? My answer is I just don't know who they are.
To me, static web sites show a stale and static life of the organization. That might not be what is really going on underneath the hood, but it looks like that to the visitors. If there is no life, people tend to believe it's either an old site with old content, or the site authors don't care or have the time to update the site. If visitors find this, they turn away and look elsewhere. I could be wrong, but If I'm not, this is something we don't want to occur.
I'd like to make squeak.org a place where all levels of expertise visit regularly. For old timers, they get the news they want. For those seeking to find out what squeak is about, they see a vibrant community and an aggressive and interesting development of squeak. One way to do that is to build a dynamic presence. Dynamic news feeds provides a small portion of this. If the site was integrated with an up-to-date, ever changing wiki, that would certainly help people who are looking for technical answers keep coming back. And, it would assist beginners too.
My belief is that we need a proper mix of 1) news, 2) well trimmed, up-to-date technical information (wiki) and 3) a comprehensive introduction to squeak (which is what the site is right now, but it too needs to be trimmed better.)
Since this is a volunteer organization, and most of us don't have time to build a site that is dynamic as I'm recommending, I suggested feeding the front site with something that was of interest to others and was dynamic. That's all.
Can you or any others help us out?
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d ObjectsHoward Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
We do control it. It's the news guys. They can just fix their typos and it'll be fine.
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Anyone else agree?
If it is plausible technically, I'd like to suggest that a small number of news items by put in a scrolling line like we see on the apple.com page ('Hot News Headlines'). Just the headline, so no "Howard Stearns etc etc" just 'Croquet editing and creation of 3D Objects' and 'Exupery Talk; Brussels 2006 Smalltalk Party' etc.
This would take very little room and yet provide links to a good number of news items. I'd hazard a guess that it would allow editors to leave the main page alone and simply change the content of some other file.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: IKI: Ignore Keyboard Input
If possible, could we edit the license page to include the news about the license being changed? I know the process is not complete yet but it is an important point, at least to all those perpetual complainers about such matters. I dare say there'll be people complaining that the Apache license isn't good enough even after all the work...
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Ready to check in at the HaHa Hilton.
tim Rowledge wrote:
If possible, could we edit the license page to include the news about the license being changed? I know the process is not complete yet but it is an important point, at least to all those perpetual complainers about such matters. I dare say there'll be people complaining that the Apache license isn't good enough even after all the work...
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Ready to check in at the HaHa Hilton.
I have been waiting for some official announcement. Do you have any links and/or info that I can put up ? Karl
If possible, could we edit the license page to include the news about the license being changed? I know the process is not complete yet but it is an important point, at least to all those perpetual complainers about such matters. I dare say there'll be people complaining that the Apache license isn't good enough even after all the work...
NOoooooo this is too cool this license change.
:)
we got burnt by OSS event organizers so much time because of the license that now we will smash them with the new one :)
On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:50:29AM -0800, Brad Fuller wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
First let me say that I'm delighted that others care about what the website looks like!
I assume that visitors with varying degrees of expertise visit the squeak.org top page. I think the question we should ask is what information should we deliver, and how should we deliver that information, to be the best service for the visitors. There are a few issue here that make this a challenge for us. I'm sure there are more.
- First, I don't think we know who those visitors are. For instance,
what is their expertise level and why they are at squeak.org? What are they searching for?
- Another issue is should the site be a dynamic site, or a site where
the information doesn't necessarily change much.
I think that the website and Wiki should be combined into one Pier website/wiki. My experience is that the homepage for a free software project is mostly for beginners, and the mailing list, wiki, and code repository is where all the action, and hence developers, are. Thus, a combined wiki/website would attract the range of expertise you are seeking, IMHO. I sent an email about a Pier wiki several months ago: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-October/110510.h...
Examining Pier as an alternative to Swiki is still on my to-do list, but is currently the third item, after I finish my tutorial index and a better Swiki index page. I could bump that up if the community wants a better, dynamic website+wiki. If so, I could start working on a proposal for the new website, along with a migration strategy, by the end of January.
I am trying hard to make the Swiki pages useful and of high enough quality that they can be a recommended reference, rather than a hodge-podge of information. I would like the same for the website.
- Yet another issue is that we are but a few volunteers, and the list is
getting smaller to help with the site.
I am quite willing to cooperate and help both the web team and the News team, since the goals of the doc team overlap the goals of the other two teams. However, a wiki migration would probably be better handled by the web team. There is no well-defined difference between the web and doc teams, as I see it.
Technically, I don't know how well a Pier website+wiki would scale, since Seaside is much more demanding than Apache or Swiki.
I take away from these recent posts that you believe the visitors are are new to squeak and are searching to find out more. Is that right? My answer is I just don't know who they are.
Well, I am still a noob, and when I first stumbled upon Squeak (Through Croquet), I was looking for two things primarily:
- What is Squeak, and why does it exist when great things like Python are around? - How do I use it?
The first question was well answered by the current website, but I found nothing to really answer the second question. Honestly, until I started my tutorial index this past month, I thought there were *no* squeak beginners tutorials other than those on dmu.com. Luckily, I was wrong, and I am trying to fill that need with my tutorial index.
To me, static web sites show a stale and static life of the organization. That might not be what is really going on underneath the hood, but it looks like that to the visitors. If there is no life, people tend to believe it's either an old site with old content, or the site authors don't care or have the time to update the site. If visitors find this, they turn away and look elsewhere. I could be wrong, but If I'm not, this is something we don't want to occur.
I agree. At first glance, Squeak looks like either a dead project (since the website, and references to it contain dead links and old documents) or a dead-end project (since nobody has ever heard of it). The Weekly squeak has helped a lot to fix the public image that Squeak is not dead, but is alive and growing in my mind. Thanks News team!
I'd like to make squeak.org a place where all levels of expertise visit regularly. For old timers, they get the news they want. For those seeking to find out what squeak is about, they see a vibrant community and an aggressive and interesting development of squeak. One way to do that is to build a dynamic presence. Dynamic news feeds provides a small portion of this. If the site was integrated with an up-to-date, ever changing wiki, that would certainly help people who are looking for technical answers keep coming back. And, it would assist beginners too.
I agree ;-)
My belief is that we need a proper mix of 1) news, 2) well trimmed, up-to-date technical information (wiki) and 3) a comprehensive introduction to squeak (which is what the site is right now, but it too needs to be trimmed better.)
I am working on the trimming. I can help with the mixing.
Since this is a volunteer organization, and most of us don't have time to build a site that is dynamic as I'm recommending, I suggested feeding the front site with something that was of interest to others and was dynamic. That's all.
hmm. I just noticed that squeak.org already is a SmallWiki site, which is the predecessor to Pier. Would it be possible to just upgrade it or flip some bits to turn it into a wiki? I could definitely bring some more life into the features and Documentation pages, at least.
Also, is there a way I could download the squeak.org SmallWiki image? That would help a lot when I get around to examining a Swiki emigration.
Can you or any others help us out?
Definitely :-)
Matthew Fulmer wrote:
On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:50:29AM -0800, Brad Fuller wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
First let me say that I'm delighted that others care about what the website looks like!
I assume that visitors with varying degrees of expertise visit the squeak.org top page. I think the question we should ask is what information should we deliver, and how should we deliver that information, to be the best service for the visitors. There are a few issue here that make this a challenge for us. I'm sure there are more.
- First, I don't think we know who those visitors are. For instance,
what is their expertise level and why they are at squeak.org? What are they searching for?
- Another issue is should the site be a dynamic site, or a site where
the information doesn't necessarily change much.
I think that the website and Wiki should be combined into one Pier website/wiki. My experience is that the homepage for a free software project is mostly for beginners, and the mailing list, wiki, and code repository is where all the action, and hence developers, are. Thus, a combined wiki/website would attract the range of expertise you are seeking, IMHO. I sent an email about a Pier wiki several months ago: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-October/110510.h...
Examining Pier as an alternative to Swiki is still on my to-do list, but is currently the third item, after I finish my tutorial index and a better Swiki index page. I could bump that up if the community wants a better, dynamic website+wiki. If so, I could start working on a proposal for the new website, along with a migration strategy, by the end of January.
I am trying hard to make the Swiki pages useful and of high enough quality that they can be a recommended reference, rather than a hodge-podge of information. I would like the same for the website.
- Yet another issue is that we are but a few volunteers, and the list is
getting smaller to help with the site.
I am quite willing to cooperate and help both the web team and the News team, since the goals of the doc team overlap the goals of the other two teams. However, a wiki migration would probably be better handled by the web team. There is no well-defined difference between the web and doc teams, as I see it.
Technically, I don't know how well a Pier website+wiki would scale, since Seaside is much more demanding than Apache or Swiki.
I take away from these recent posts that you believe the visitors are are new to squeak and are searching to find out more. Is that right? My answer is I just don't know who they are.
Well, I am still a noob, and when I first stumbled upon Squeak (Through Croquet), I was looking for two things primarily:
- What is Squeak, and why does it exist when great things like Python are around?
- How do I use it?
The first question was well answered by the current website, but I found nothing to really answer the second question. Honestly, until I started my tutorial index this past month, I thought there were *no* squeak beginners tutorials other than those on dmu.com. Luckily, I was wrong, and I am trying to fill that need with my tutorial index.
To me, static web sites show a stale and static life of the organization. That might not be what is really going on underneath the hood, but it looks like that to the visitors. If there is no life, people tend to believe it's either an old site with old content, or the site authors don't care or have the time to update the site. If visitors find this, they turn away and look elsewhere. I could be wrong, but If I'm not, this is something we don't want to occur.
I agree. At first glance, Squeak looks like either a dead project (since the website, and references to it contain dead links and old documents) or a dead-end project (since nobody has ever heard of it). The Weekly squeak has helped a lot to fix the public image that Squeak is not dead, but is alive and growing in my mind. Thanks News team!
I'd like to make squeak.org a place where all levels of expertise visit regularly. For old timers, they get the news they want. For those seeking to find out what squeak is about, they see a vibrant community and an aggressive and interesting development of squeak. One way to do that is to build a dynamic presence. Dynamic news feeds provides a small portion of this. If the site was integrated with an up-to-date, ever changing wiki, that would certainly help people who are looking for technical answers keep coming back. And, it would assist beginners too.
I agree ;-)
My belief is that we need a proper mix of 1) news, 2) well trimmed, up-to-date technical information (wiki) and 3) a comprehensive introduction to squeak (which is what the site is right now, but it too needs to be trimmed better.)
I am working on the trimming. I can help with the mixing.
Since this is a volunteer organization, and most of us don't have time to build a site that is dynamic as I'm recommending, I suggested feeding the front site with something that was of interest to others and was dynamic. That's all.
hmm. I just noticed that squeak.org already is a SmallWiki site, which is the predecessor to Pier. Would it be possible to just upgrade it or flip some bits to turn it into a wiki? I could definitely bring some more life into the features and Documentation pages, at least.
Also, is there a way I could download the squeak.org SmallWiki image? That would help a lot when I get around to examining a Swiki emigration.
Can you or any others help us out?
Definitely :-)
Welcome :-) I'll try to add you to the password lists etc. (I'm not sure I remember how to do that...) Squeak.org and the swiki are different because people wanted a small, easy intro to the Squeakworld.
As you know the swiki is neither :-) I think it is a nice distinction.
The documentation pages need a lot of attention, so you are welcome to work on them. I don't think we should move all content over to Squeak.org from the swiki as most users don't have access to squeak.org editing and therefore editing will be a major obstacle.
The distinction between the doc team and web team would be that there were some talk about linking the doc into the image somehow. But I agree, we have much of the same purpose, documenting Squeak.
I'm not sure how well Pier would scale as a wiki. It is quite different than both Smallwiki and Swiki and it I haven't gotten used to it yet. Smallwiki is also quite different from Swiki.
I'm not sure how to give you a squeak.org image as it contains passwords etc. so I can't post it publicly. Access to the server is provided by the Box admins.
Hope we will have a good time working together.
Karl
Welcome :-) I'll try to add you to the password lists etc. (I'm not sure I remember how to do that...) Squeak.org and the swiki are different because people wanted a small, easy intro to the Squeakworld.
As you know the swiki is neither :-) I think it is a nice distinction. The documentation pages need a lot of attention, so you are welcome to work on them. I don't think we should move all content over to Squeak.org from the swiki as most users don't have access to squeak.org editing and therefore editing will be a major obstacle.
The distinction between the doc team and web team would be that there were some talk about linking the doc into the image somehow. But I agree, we have much of the same purpose, documenting Squeak.
I'm not sure how well Pier would scale as a wiki. It is quite different than both Smallwiki and Swiki and it I haven't gotten used to it yet. Smallwiki is also quite different from Swiki.
I'm not sure how to give you a squeak.org image as it contains passwords etc. so I can't post it publicly. Access to the server is provided by the Box admins.
Hope we will have a good time working together.
Karl
ESUG proposed to lukas to get payed to produce a better version of Pier that ESUG (and everybody) could use to build website. Now lukas is totally fully booked. We wanted to have a file/database back end with external resources management, an admin, and easy install download. We hope that lukas will get some time for Pier. So at least you know that I was not saying that we should change the underlying system. just swap two paragraphs.
Stef
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought Id reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
Stef
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
_________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
Actually - these are the guys to catch: http://www.rubyonrails.org/ On Jan 6, 2007, at 12:21 PM, J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org- specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
> > Stef > > > > The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
On 6-Jan-07, at 12:40 PM, Todd Blanchard wrote:
Actually - these are the guys to catch: http://www.rubyonrails.org/
It certainly has a good clean and yet fascinating layout and style
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Always try to be modest. And be damn proud of it!
Actually - these are the guys to catch: http://www.rubyonrails.org/
It certainly has a good clean and yet fascinating layout and style
Yes this is really nice to see the evolution of web style design. Some are getting pure and really slick.
Stef
Really professional. Good sense of communication The sentence just below the title, the large logos and the overall style.
Actually - these are the guys to catch: http://www.rubyonrails.org/
Stef
On 1/6/07, Todd Blanchard tblanchard@mac.com wrote:
Actually - these are the guys to catch: http://www.rubyonrails.org/
To catch?
In case I interpret that as them being competition - I don't see RoR that way. Finally a feasible, well-documented, well-thought-out web framework in a dynamic language that doesn't suck as much as Perl :-). We should be linking to them instead of viewing them as competition!
/me mumbles something of standing on the shoulders of giants and wanders away
You misunderstand. Squeak is the better product . I tried RoR and found it to be like the stone ages. But RoR has GREAT marketing and evangelism. Which is why they have bigger mindshare.
We could learn something from them there. Who is the website for? Current Squeakers? I think not so much. You want to attract new users with it. New users don't care about the news - they don't understand it. It is for insiders and it makes us look clubby and not really welcoming.
I think the Squeak site looks gorgeous - really pretty - but the order of presentation isn't so good if you are wanting to draw people in.
On Jan 7, 2007, at 3:43 AM, Cees de Groot wrote:
On 1/6/07, Todd Blanchard tblanchard@mac.com wrote:
Actually - these are the guys to catch: http://www.rubyonrails.org/
To catch?
In case I interpret that as them being competition - I don't see RoR that way. Finally a feasible, well-documented, well-thought-out web framework in a dynamic language that doesn't suck as much as Perl :-). We should be linking to them instead of viewing them as competition!
/me mumbles something of standing on the shoulders of giants and wanders away
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad? Karl
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
> > Stef > > > > The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
2007/1/6, J J azreal1977@hotmail.com:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d ObjectsHoward Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I'd reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
> >Stef > > > > The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad? Karl
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
> > Stef > > > > The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably be addressed to the news team. Karl
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
Karl wrote:
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad?
Yeah, we can show just titles (I just changed it so you could see) or adjust how much text is displayed. I like some text displayed because it gives the reader a flavor of what is there and makes it more enticing.
It sounds like people have more ideas than just what goes first on the front page. So far, it appears that the comments are not about specific pages but about focus and content, and the overall needs that are not being addressed. Maybe the web team should gather opinions from the squeak community? We are doing that here, but maybe we need to compose an email and ask more specifically.
brad
Why not put news titles on the side. If a user wants to read an article they can click on the link.
Also, make sure to expire the news so you don't see news events that are more than 3 months old. Showing old news is another sign of a stagnent site.
Terry
=========================================================== Terry Raymond Smalltalk Professional Debug Package Crafted Smalltalk 80 Lazywood Ln. Tiverton, RI 02878 (401) 624-4517 traymond@craftedsmalltalk.com http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com ===========================================================
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Brad Fuller Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 6:13 PM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site
Karl wrote:
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad?
Yeah, we can show just titles (I just changed it so you could see) or adjust how much text is displayed. I like some text displayed because it gives the reader a flavor of what is there and makes it more enticing.
It sounds like people have more ideas than just what goes first on the front page. So far, it appears that the comments are not about specific pages but about focus and content, and the overall needs that are not being addressed. Maybe the web team should gather opinions from the squeak community? We are doing that here, but maybe we need to compose an email and ask more specifically.
brad
Brad Fuller wrote:
Karl wrote:
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad?
Yeah, we can show just titles (I just changed it so you could see)
Karl: it's on the test site
The sites I looked at just had a summary first, which squeak.org did when I looked. Maybe add a little bit more? I don't think the whole about needs to go up there as it is kind of long.
From: Karl karl.ramberg@chello.se Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:47:54 +0100
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad? Karl
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought Id reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
>> >>Stef >> >> >> >> >The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team >you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl
>Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should probably >be addressed to the news team. >Karl > > >
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
_________________________________________________________________ Get FREE Web site and company branded e-mail from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
Just to clarify what I meant:
I like it almost exactly as it is. The only thing I would personally change would be to associate the weekly squeak with the week it is about and (maybe) add a couple of sentences to the summary.
I like the about where it is. It should be on the front page, but if it is at the top it will push the news down off the screen. For the ADD crowd we need that date right on the first page without scrolling. If it isn't current, it isn't relevant so the about doesn't matter.
As for typos, how do you enter the news? If you use the web browser, then download Mozilla 2. It has a spell check built in. That's why I am able to spell all of the sudden (now if they would just add a grammar checker I could appear educated).
From: "J J" azreal1977@hotmail.com Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 09:19:39 +0000
The sites I looked at just had a summary first, which squeak.org did when I looked. Maybe add a little bit more? I don't think the whole about needs to go up there as it is kind of long.
From: Karl karl.ramberg@chello.se Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:47:54 +0100
J J wrote:
Well what do other people do? Haskell is pretty popular these days. Here is their site: http://haskell.org
http://www.python.org/ has 'about python' first. http://www.java.com is just ads and presentations http://www.erlang.org is just news http://www.perl.org is a table/menu of links and then news http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx is news/tutorials and ads http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx is news/tutorials
There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first. But if the majority of Squeakers think the 'about' should be fist it's easy to change. I'm not sure about getting just headlines though... Brad? Karl
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:00:05 -0800
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
We could then go on to debate some more ambiguous decisions. For example, within the news section, I would put the squeak.org-specific "Posted News" above the external "News Feeds". However, I have other things to do this fine Saturday than to push hard on that point, or similar ones.
Happy weekend Squeaking, Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
Karl
really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. Can't we get the welcome paragraph in the first place? Should I really totally boycott Squeak? Don't you understand that we are in a world where people communicate and judge on form?
News Feed as a title of the first item of the page that describes squeak is not a smart choice. For somehow not knowing at all what squeak is about and that does not really care about getting involved but just want to give a glance.
Then there are 5 typos in the following text. So the fact that we do not control (or may be somebody edited the text and the list by hand) what is published there would push us to be cautious and not put it up front.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought Id reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...."
So what I suggest is to swap the welcome and the news feeds. I think that this is important.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 18:53, Karl wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote: >Hi karl > >my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that >we need something that anybody (and certainly someone >evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the >squeak web site, it should be great. >And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all >the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this >would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about >squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now. The first paragraph is about the OLPC which has Squeak as part of it's software. I would consider that a very big news item. The frontpage got very static and nobody updated it and nobody wants to lead the web team so this was a good solution for us, since a webpage that newer changes is a dead webpage, at least in my book.
> >>> >>>Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> >>The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team >>you will be able to post directly. > >I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say. I find that hard to believe ;-) Karl > >>Typos and other standards of posting to the news feed should >>probably be addressed to the news team. >>Karl >> >> >> > > >
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There seems there is no general consensus about what should be first.
I think there is, but existing implementations are more or less successful. There should be a design pattern for home pages.
The audience for a home page is both newcomers or even people wandering by, and people that want to follow the community. Both have different questions when they arrive on the page:
newcomers: - what the hell is Squeak ? - where are the screenshots ? - where are the tutorials ? - where do I get/try it ?
followers: - where is the latest release ? - what is happening in the community (events, releases, hot projects, misc news) ? - where is the documentation/technical papers ? - where is the source / version control / bugtracker ? - how is the community organized ? (think debian guidelines or friend sites like squeaksource, squeak foundation etc)
I like http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ because it doesn't look academic like haskell (purely aesthetic) nor corporate bs like java or vb (java.sun.com is better than java.com btw), and it's visually clearer than python's page.
- big logo that means "yes, this is THE official page" - Ruby is... + small code sample that changes at each reload - news that mean "yes, we,re alive" - big download link - get started / explore / participate sidebar blocks that you see as soon as you spend a few seconds looking at the page.
Joshua Gargus writes:
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
I'd agree that the typos aren't ideal but having regular news is a great sign of life. Without it, the page and Squeak risk looking abandoned.
Also the page should be useful for experienced Squeakers as well. If it's only for beginners it risks becoming out of date. It needs knowledgeable readers to spot the mistakes and opportunities for improvement.
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
Bryce
Andreas Raab a écrit :
bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk wrote:
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
+1
Cheers,
- Andreas
Indeed ?
I remeber that when I saw a site that start with the news I always get ungry. I want to know what the purpos and I get bother to search for the informations.
It should take 1s to make this little fix. No?
Math
On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:06:29PM +0100, Andreas Raab wrote:
bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk wrote:
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
+1
Cheers,
- Andreas
I like it too. I don't have any strong opinion as to whether the "news" or "welcome" should be on top, but either way it's a useful and nicely presented site, and I appreciate all the work from the news and web teams (I have a hunch that it's a lot of work).
Dave
Another +1.
I hope that I didn't sound negative about the web site. I think that it would clearly benefit from having "Welcome!" at the top, but overall the site is good, and a tremendous improvement over what we had in the past.
Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk wrote:
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
+1
Cheers,
- Andreas
Joshua Gargus skrev:
Another +1.
I hope that I didn't sound negative about the web site. I think that it would clearly benefit from having "Welcome!" at the top, but overall the site is good, and a tremendous improvement over what we had in the past.
Josh
Ok, I changed it a little. What do you think ? Karl
On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk wrote:
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
+1
Cheers,
- Andreas
I think it's an improvement. Stephane?
Thanks Karl! Josh
On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:51 PM, karl wrote:
Joshua Gargus skrev:
Another +1.
I hope that I didn't sound negative about the web site. I think that it would clearly benefit from having "Welcome!" at the top, but overall the site is good, and a tremendous improvement over what we had in the past.
Josh
Ok, I changed it a little. What do you think ? Karl
On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk wrote:
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
+1
Cheers,
- Andreas
better. If we could remove the typos on the first top quarter of the page it would be great.
Stef
On 6 janv. 07, at 23:51, karl wrote:
Joshua Gargus skrev:
Another +1.
I hope that I didn't sound negative about the web site. I think that it would clearly benefit from having "Welcome!" at the top, but overall the site is good, and a tremendous improvement over what we had in the past.
Josh
Ok, I changed it a little. What do you think ? Karl
On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk wrote:
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
+1
Cheers,
- Andreas
I just had a look at the squeak web site and I have to say, I like it. It is unique and has everything in a concise layout.
The only thing I would suggest is; can we get some kind of date on the news items (e.g. Weekly Squeak [week 2, 2007]). I don't know about others, but the first thing I do in evaluating a site is check for dates. I saw some but it wouldn't hurt to relate them to the weekly squeak as well.
And Step, I'm afraid I didn't really understand your concerns. Is it just about typos showing up in the news? Would you mind restating it?
Thanks, J
From: bryce@kampjes.demon.co.uk Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 21:49:45 +0000
Joshua Gargus writes:
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
I'd agree that the typos aren't ideal but having regular news is a great sign of life. Without it, the page and Squeak risk looking abandoned.
Also the page should be useful for experienced Squeakers as well. If it's only for beginners it risks becoming out of date. It needs knowledgeable readers to spot the mistakes and opportunities for improvement.
Overall, I like the current Squeak site. Sure it could be better and mistakes do happen but it looks decent and has a reasonable range of information. Thanks to both the news and web teams.
Bryce
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On 1/6/07, Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us wrote:
Stephane makes a good point. If we want http://squeak.org to be the public face of Squeak to the outside world, then the news feeds should absolutely not appear at the very top. Instead, the Welcome! section should come first to give a basic understanding of the entire site. That much is clear (right? if not, why?)
It depends. Define your audience first. Then the rest follows suit.
1. Make squeak.org mostly interesting to newcomers: put the blurb on top. 2. Make squeak.org a portal interesting to regulars: put the news on top.
An oversimplification, but just making the point that you should define your audience groups and their relative importance before discussing what to put above the fold.
Having said that, it's probably not a very good idea to start with a news section that links off-site :). But I agree that a static frontpage makes for a dead website these days so if this is all we're going to get with the current volunteer team, fine with me.
Kudos to the web and news teams for an awesome amount of progress in 2006 (and hoping for them to put even more work into it in 2007 :-P).
And Stef - sorry, but your style of communication is again not very helpful. Frankly, if you start like that, I could not care less what you put or put not on your resumes, link-wise.
And Stef - sorry, but your style of communication is again not very helpful. Frankly, if you start like that, I could not care less what you put or put not on your resumes, link-wise.
Thanks I really appreciate... but from you it does not matter in fact.
This proves to me that I should really do something else. May be if you browse the archive you will notice that I'm the guy that really pushed and worked on setting up the first version of the new web page (it was not that sexy) but of course this does not count.
Talking is always easier.
Happy new year Cees.
Stef
Hi Cees,
on Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:36:27 +0100, you wrote: ...
And Stef - sorry, but your style of communication is again not very helpful. Frankly, if you start like that, I could not care less what you put or put not on your resumes, link-wise.
"start like that" ? Didn't he just ask if it is possible to make some changes?
Cees, this kind of blunder that you wrote is just the "right" stuff for newbees to send them away from the main mailing list (and perhaps from Squeak): Stef has not only done a great job but he is also a great contributor and promotor. Now is this your message: go away activists, Cees could not care less.
What criteria do you put up for linking a resume to Squeak pages? What criteria do you put up for allowing to ask for changes to the main web page?
/Klaus
Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
on Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:36:27 +0100, you wrote:
And Stef - sorry, but your style of communication is again not very helpful. Frankly, if you start like that, I could not care less what you put or put not on your resumes, link-wise.
"start like that" ? Didn't he just ask if it is possible to make some changes?
I'll have to say I'm 100% with Cees on this one - I read that message as a threat (I will not link to you unless you change X and Y) and not as a request. Not one bit.
Cheers, - Andreas
Cees, this kind of blunder that you wrote is just the "right" stuff for newbees to send them away from the main mailing list (and perhaps from Squeak): Stef has not only done a great job but he is also a great contributor and promotor. Now is this your message: go away activists, Cees could not care less.
What criteria do you put up for linking a resume to Squeak pages? What criteria do you put up for allowing to ask for changes to the main web page?
/Klaus
Why andreas? My original post was not nice?
" Happy new years. I wish you a lot of fun and success for your squeaking projects.
Now I would like to know if this is possible to fix the squeak web site. I was a nice idea to put the news seeds in the web site but but but. - we do not control the contents - some of them are not really squeaking - some of them contain a lot of typos.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...." Sorry but I do not know who is mathieu :) and this give me the impression to get in a private discussion.
I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org/ on important documents. So could we ut the welcome section right on the top. and the news after the portal.
Stef "
But this is clear I will stay away from squeak. This is a good year resolution.
Stef
On 7 janv. 07, at 15:37, Andreas Raab wrote:
Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
on Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:36:27 +0100, you wrote:
And Stef - sorry, but your style of communication is again not very helpful. Frankly, if you start like that, I could not care less what you put or put not on your resumes, link-wise.
"start like that" ? Didn't he just ask if it is possible to make some changes?
I'll have to say I'm 100% with Cees on this one - I read that message as a threat (I will not link to you unless you change X and Y) and not as a request. Not one bit.
Cheers,
- Andreas
Cees, this kind of blunder that you wrote is just the "right" stuff for newbees to send them away from the main mailing list (and perhaps from Squeak): Stef has not only done a great job but he is also a great contributor and promotor. Now is this your message: go away activists, Cees could not care less. What criteria do you put up for linking a resume to Squeak pages? What criteria do you put up for allowing to ask for changes to the main web page? /Klaus
stephane ducasse wrote:
Why andreas? My original post was not nice?
Well, judge for yourself - are these "nice" quotes? "Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org..." "But ok I will remove all my links to squeak.org." "Really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. "
And perhaps most importantly if someone points out that Cees is not the only person who read those messages that way, is it "nice" to respond like this?
But this is clear I will stay away from squeak. This is a good year resolution.
Cheers, - Andreas
Andreas Raab wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Why andreas? My original post was not nice?
Well, judge for yourself - are these "nice" quotes? "Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org..." "But ok I will remove all my links to squeak.org." "Really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. "
And perhaps most importantly if someone points out that Cees is not the only person who read those messages that way, is it "nice" to respond like this?
But this is clear I will stay away from squeak. This is a good year resolution.
Cheers,
- Andreas
I dont think that Stef needs to judge for himself at all. There is nothing "un nice" about these quotes, particularly when they are read "in context".
There is nothing un-nice about suggesting that links to squeak.org might be removed from a cv. I would want links from my cv to be fairly static and to know exactly what a prospective employer might be reading. I would put my own description about squeak in for this purpose. Heck even the name "squeak" can be a problem in that respect.
Keith
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
thanks keith. In fact this is basically the only option I have and this was making me sad. Because at the end I would like to be proud of squeak and what we are and did. but form is as important as contents when people are judging you. So already the changes made by karl improved the situation.
Stef
On 7 janv. 07, at 16:44, Keith Hodges wrote:
Andreas Raab wrote:
stephane ducasse wrote:
Why andreas? My original post was not nice?
Well, judge for yourself - are these "nice" quotes? "Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org..." "But ok I will remove all my links to squeak.org." "Really I'm quite annoyed. I cannot tell you all the story behind my mail but this is not a simple idiot remark. "
And perhaps most importantly if someone points out that Cees is not the only person who read those messages that way, is it "nice" to respond like this?
But this is clear I will stay away from squeak. This is a good year resolution.
Cheers,
- Andreas
I dont think that Stef needs to judge for himself at all. There is nothing "un nice" about these quotes, particularly when they are read "in context".
There is nothing un-nice about suggesting that links to squeak.org might be removed from a cv. I would want links from my cv to be fairly static and to know exactly what a prospective employer might be reading. I would put my own description about squeak in for this purpose. Heck even the name "squeak" can be a problem in that respect.
Keith
Send instant messages to your online friends http:// uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Keith Hodges wrote:
I dont think that Stef needs to judge for himself at all. There is nothing "un nice" about these quotes, particularly when they are read "in context".
I guess that merely goes to show that different people interpret things differently - which after all was my point, namely saying that I read those messages in a quite similar way that Cees did. No more, no less and with that I'm out of this thread ;-)
Cheers, - Andreas
There is nothing un-nice about suggesting that links to squeak.org might be removed from a cv. I would want links from my cv to be fairly static and to know exactly what a prospective employer might be reading. I would put my own description about squeak in for this purpose. Heck even the name "squeak" can be a problem in that respect.
Keith
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
2007/1/7, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com:
Cees, this kind of blunder that you wrote is just the "right" stuff for newbees to send them away from the main mailing list (and perhaps from Squeak): Stef has not only done a great job but he is also a great contributor and promotor. Now is this your message: go away activists, Cees could not care less.
Exactly. I would understand an aggressive answer to a first mail but after a while it's easy to see behind one's writing style and abstract away what could be read as aggressive but wasn't really meant so. We don't have the time or the english skills to write perfect tactful mails, so as readers we should learn to interpret mails.
*puts down Captain Obvious costume*
Il giorno sab, 06/01/2007 alle 18.07 +0100, stephane ducasse ha scritto:
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site. I think that we need something that anybody (and certainly someone evaluating me can understand). When people click on my cv on the squeak web site, it should be great. And the news section should not be the top items. Or I can remove all the links I have on my sites and cv to squeak.org but this would be sad because imagine a person not knowing anything about squeak going to the site and reading the first paragraph right now.
News _should_ be in the top part of the home page, maybe after the "What is Squeak" blurb. That said, I don't think that the Weekly Squeak news feed should be integrated in the main page of squeak.org: many of the news items are interesting for those who already know and use Squeak, and not for those that go to squeak.org to learn what Squeak is. A better solution would be to cherrypick TWS' most interesting news items only.
The news feed is from news.squeak.org so if you join the news team you will be able to post directly.
I do not want. I have nothing against news and I have nothing to say.
We are always looking for feedback anyway, so if anywants want to ask something or give us some feedback, may send a message to news@lists.squeakfoundation.org .
Giovanni
I think this is annoying. The websties of most companies and software projects put too much emphasis on news and press releases.
http://mesa3d.org/ for instance has nothing but news on the front page. You have to click a link in the left pane to learn what the project is about.
I think http://www.kde.org/ is somewhat better because there's a small description of the project before the news feed and you can click the "more" link if that's not instructive enough.
News are still important thought. Since most user won't bother to subscribe to malling list and rss feeds, the website is their sole indication that the project is alive.
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site.
On Jan 6, 2007, at 10:12 PM, Alexandre Jasmin wrote:
I think this is annoying. The websties of most companies and software projects put too much emphasis on news and press releases.
http://mesa3d.org/ for instance has nothing but news on the front page. You have to click a link in the left pane to learn what the project is about.
I think http://www.kde.org/ is somewhat better because there's a small description of the project before the news feed and you can click the "more" link if that's not instructive enough.
this is not a KDE vs. Gnome troll, but I do prefer the gnome website :p I think a big picture that sends you to the download/get started page is a great idea. When you get on the site, you just *have to click*!
Also have the news and other info reachable, but not taking all the space. We want people to use squeak, not just to read about it ;)
News are still important thought. Since most user won't bother to subscribe to malling list and rss feeds, the website is their sole indication that the project is alive.
Hi karl
my point is about the place of the news on the web site.
well... the squeaky wheel.... The front page of the website has been updated from comments here.
(What I think we need is a PR team to come up with great evangelistic ideas and coordinate messages with the web team, news team and doc team.)
On 1/7/07 3:19 PM, "Brad Fuller" brad@bradfuller.com wrote:
well... the squeaky wheel.... The front page of the website has been updated from comments here.
(What I think we need is a PR team to come up with great evangelistic ideas and coordinate messages with the web team, news team and doc team.)
Dear Squeak Committee and Community,
I have been reading the comments about the composition of the Squeak.org home page this weekend with great interest. As I have started a web host for Smalltalk (SeasideParasol.com), I am confronted by the same problems you are about getting the word out about what I offer. I am working actively to generate publicity for my project -- and Squeak should be actively working to generate publicity for Squeak.
I was fired up enough about it to call Brad Fuller in Palo Alto (I'm in Toronto). I just got off the phone with him. I liked the things he had to say on the message board, and felt I'd ask him about how to volunteer to assist the Squeak.org project, and to ask how a public relations committee could be formed for Squeak. He told me that he made mention of a similar proposal some time ago and it was met with indifference.
That is simply not acceptable. It is imperative that a committee of Squeak Committee people (or hey, I'll join) convene on a regular basis to do the bare minimum to promote Squeak. If you think that public relations is not important, well, see if you disagree with either of the techniques that I tried last week. They failed for me, but they could work for Squeak.
1. I posted to Slashdot and was rejected. I think that's because saying "World's First Commercial Smalltalk Web Host" says I'm a business, and not a non-profit. Squeak is a non-profit project. It's a no-brainer that every time a new version of Squeak is launched that somebody take 30-seconds to post to Slashdot. I would point out that recently there was a post announcing the release of the Amiga 4.0 operating system. Amiga. But that's not the best part. The kicker is that there is no hardware yet built on planet Earth that can run this OS. It's expected sometime this year.
2. I posted to Digg.com. I had no success with that. Digg raises the profile with votes. It would be no problem to announce on this list that people should go to Digg, register and vote up the news item about a Squeak project. Mark Guzdial sits on 200 undergrads that he could announce to at Georgia Tech, and ask them to visit the site to vote an item up. I would point out that Avi Bryant did this for Dabble DB, and he asked on the Seaside message board for people to vote his item up.
These are simple things to do. But hey! If you have a better idea, great! The important thing is to have four or so Squeak people in a committee thinking about this on a regular basis. The "how" is debatable; the need for such a body is not. I am moving from journalism (dynamicword.com) to web hosting for Smalltalk. This stuff, from where I come from, is a no-brainer. If you don't respect public relations, because you are above it or something, then I say two things to you: 1. You have no concept of how the world works; and 2. If you ever complain that Squeak is underappreciated, and you let this call to action go without the immediate and determined formation of a Squeak public relations committee, then you have no right to complain.
There is a reason why Tide and Coke-a-Cola are the top of mind when people are asked -- suddenly! -- to name a laundry detergent or a soda pop. It's mere, simple repetition. That's marketing, that's public relations. Squeak is better than both. It's practically divine.
I get so incensed about this issue I could bite a rock. The bare minimum public relations awareness must come to the Squeak community. A committee doing the obvious must be formed immediately.
If Karl Rove worked for Squeak our problems would be over with very, very quickly. ;)
Chris Cunnington Toronto
hi chris
I agree that this is important. Do something, my english is too bad but I support effort in that direction if Brad wants to help.
Stef
well... the squeaky wheel.... The front page of the website has been updated from comments here.
(What I think we need is a PR team to come up with great evangelistic ideas and coordinate messages with the web team, news team and doc team.)
Dear Squeak Committee and Community,
I have been reading the comments about the composition of the Squeak.org home page this weekend with great interest. As I have started a web host for Smalltalk (SeasideParasol.com), I am confronted by the same problems you are about getting the word out about what I offer. I am working actively to generate publicity for my project -- and Squeak should be actively working to generate publicity for Squeak.
I was fired up enough about it to call Brad Fuller in Palo Alto (I'm in Toronto). I just got off the phone with him. I liked the things he had to say on the message board, and felt I'd ask him about how to volunteer to assist the Squeak.org project, and to ask how a public relations committee could be formed for Squeak. He told me that he made mention of a similar proposal some time ago and it was met with indifference.
That is simply not acceptable. It is imperative that a committee of Squeak Committee people (or hey, I'll join) convene on a regular basis to do the bare minimum to promote Squeak. If you think that public relations is not important, well, see if you disagree with either of the techniques that I tried last week. They failed for me, but they could work for Squeak.
- I posted to Slashdot and was rejected. I think that's because
saying "World's First Commercial Smalltalk Web Host" says I'm a business, and not a non-profit. Squeak is a non-profit project. It's a no-brainer that every time a new version of Squeak is launched that somebody take 30- seconds to post to Slashdot. I would point out that recently there was a post announcing the release of the Amiga 4.0 operating system. Amiga. But that's not the best part. The kicker is that there is no hardware yet built on planet Earth that can run this OS. It's expected sometime this year.
- I posted to Digg.com. I had no success with that. Digg raises
the profile with votes. It would be no problem to announce on this list that people should go to Digg, register and vote up the news item about a Squeak project. Mark Guzdial sits on 200 undergrads that he could announce to at Georgia Tech, and ask them to visit the site to vote an item up. I would point out that Avi Bryant did this for Dabble DB, and he asked on the Seaside message board for people to vote his item up.
These are simple things to do. But hey! If you have a better idea, great! The important thing is to have four or so Squeak people in a committee thinking about this on a regular basis. The "how" is debatable; the need for such a body is not. I am moving from journalism (dynamicword.com) to web hosting for Smalltalk. This stuff, from where I come from, is a no- brainer. If you don't respect public relations, because you are above it or something, then I say two things to you: 1. You have no concept of how the world works; and 2. If you ever complain that Squeak is underappreciated, and you let this call to action go without the immediate and determined formation of a Squeak public relations committee, then you have no right to complain.
There is a reason why Tide and Coke-a-Cola are the top of mind when people are asked -- suddenly! -- to name a laundry detergent or a soda pop. It's mere, simple repetition. That's marketing, that's public relations. Squeak is better than both. It's practically divine.
I get so incensed about this issue I could bite a rock. The bare minimum public relations awareness must come to the Squeak community. A committee doing the obvious must be formed immediately.
If Karl Rove worked for Squeak our problems would be over with very, very quickly. ;)
Chris Cunnington Toronto
No, we would have all new problems. :-)
Seriously, I support this. I have no skills in PR, but I do think we don't do a good job of messaging the outside world.
Another thing that can be done, if you blog about software, is to register your blog in the buzz section on artima.com. They tend to be java focused, but the buzz section is pretty much a blog news aggregator - whatever you post gets echoed into the stream. There are probably more tech aggregators that could be tapped by publishing RSS feeds.
-Todd Blanchard
On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Chris Cunnington wrote:
If Karl Rove worked for Squeak our problems would be over with very, very quickly. ;)
Todd Blanchard skrev:
No, we would have all new problems. :-)
Be careful not to think people think you are a spammer. There was a story in digg about some guy just posting his web url in a signature on a comment, and he got lot's of bad attention. The same happened to the Dabble story, lot's of 'this is spam' comments.
Blogging is maybe the least intrusive self promotion and can generate a lot of attention if conducted persistently and with a long term focus. James Robertson has a very well known blog, it was listed on a top 500 blogs some time ago http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/View.ssp Take a look at his posting history http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=334... It takes dedication.
Karl
Seriously, I support this. I have no skills in PR, but I do think we don't do a good job of messaging the outside world.
Another thing that can be done, if you blog about software, is to register your blog in the buzz section on artima.com. They tend to be java focused, but the buzz section is pretty much a blog news aggregator - whatever you post gets echoed into the stream. There are probably more tech aggregators that could be tapped by publishing RSS feeds.
-Todd Blanchard
On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Chris Cunnington wrote:
If Karl Rove worked for Squeak our problems would be over with very, very
quickly. ;)
I think it is a good idea. Squeak definately needs higher visability and to achieve it the effort needs to be focused and managed... OMG I'm sounding like a management consultant - shoot me now!
I have an idea but have been holding off because I think it has been suggested in various guises several times before and because I also don't think there is much enthusiasm for promoting Squeak per se, let alone my heinous idea. Oh well, in for penny... a Squeak showcase image with unashamed lavish amounts of eye-candy, light on the smalltalk, heavy of the practical/fun uses of Squeak. Buff up some of the existing stuff already in Squeak, such as the PDA, add in some stuff that typical users take for granted (in a way *they* expect to find it) and then maybe some tasters of what could be done with a minimum amount of Smalltalk knowledge. In others words: hook 'em and reel 'em in (personally I don't know of any fish that leap out of the water and into the net of their own accord, but of course there are exceptions... and some of us are still flopping about gasping for air). I don't suggest it is a trivial task but then not too ambitious either.
On 1/8/07, karl karl.ramberg@chello.se wrote:
Todd Blanchard skrev:
No, we would have all new problems. :-)
Be careful not to think people think you are a spammer. There was a story in digg about some guy just posting his web url in a signature on a comment, and he got lot's of bad attention. The same happened to the Dabble story, lot's of 'this is spam' comments.
Blogging is maybe the least intrusive self promotion and can generate a lot of attention if conducted persistently and with a long term focus. James Robertson has a very well known blog, it was listed on a top 500 blogs some time ago http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/View.ssp Take a look at his posting history
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=334... It takes dedication.
Karl
Seriously, I support this. I have no skills in PR, but I do think we don't do a good job of messaging the outside world.
Another thing that can be done, if you blog about software, is to register your blog in the buzz section on artima.com. They tend to be java focused, but the buzz section is pretty much a blog news aggregator - whatever you post gets echoed into the stream. There are probably more tech aggregators that could be tapped by publishing RSS feeds.
-Todd Blanchard
On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Chris Cunnington wrote:
If Karl Rove worked for Squeak our problems would be over with very,
very
quickly. ;)
Hi All,
Yesterday I was ranting about the need for Squeak to have a PR committee, so I¹m going to start one. That¹s a pretty bold statement, because there is an existing body of people who have a lot of experience with the development of Squeak projects, and I neither know who these people are nor how they like to do things. So, finding out who the players are and asking them away from this list how they like to do things will be my first job as the initial member of the newly formed Squeak PR Committee (The SPQS -- Sentatus Populusque Squeakarum). I¹ll report back what the consensus seems to be in about two weeks.
Chris Cunnington Toronto
On 9-Jan-07, at 9:05 AM, Chris Cunnington wrote:
Hi All,
Yesterday I was ranting about the need for Squeak to have a PR committee, so I’m going to start one.
Chris, all you need to do is take a look at http://www.squeak.org/ Community/Teams/ and decide if you want to be an official Team Leader. Then we (as in The Board of All-wise and All-powerful Grand Poobars) can ratify the idea, install you as PR king, provide a mailing list and limousine etc.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: BBL: Branch on Burned out Light
That's wonderful. I, for one, am glad to have someone passionate about smalltalk and PR on board. I agree with everything you said about marketing, and anyone should be able to see it from recent developments (e.g. Java, Rails).
From: Chris Cunnington cunnington@sympatico.ca Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: The Squeak PR Committee Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:05:53 -0500
Hi All,
Yesterday I was ranting about the need for Squeak to have a PR committee, so I¹m going to start one. That¹s a pretty bold statement, because there is an existing body of people who have a lot of experience with the development of Squeak projects, and I neither know who these people are nor how they like to do things. So, finding out who the players are and asking them away from this list how they like to do things will be my first job as the initial member of the newly formed Squeak PR Committee (The SPQS -- Sentatus Populusque Squeakarum). I¹ll report back what the consensus seems to be in about two weeks.
Chris Cunnington Toronto
_________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
Hi Chris,
First, I love your quote close to the bottom of your message:
mere, simple repetition. That's marketing, that's public relations. Squeak is better than both (context: Tide and Coke-a-Cola). It's practically divine.
:)
Forming a Public Relations/Marketing team for Squeak is a great idea. If we (individuals in the Squeak community) think we have a tool that is better or equal to than 95% of the other tools out there, we should not be afraid to shout it out and get more attention to it. Squeak can be improved and morphed, but it is still great, so let us say it.
Squeak now has 2 teams (web and news) that are related to the PR area, and also every company and individual who uses Squeak, (on their website with Seaside, or Squeak browser plugin), every Squeak Blogger are part of the PR effort, but it would be great if in addition Squeak has a targetted planned campaing to promote it.
So thanks for making the leap, and go for it, Milan
On 2007 January 8 14:28, Chris Cunnington wrote:
On 1/7/07 3:19 PM, "Brad Fuller" brad@bradfuller.com wrote:
well... the squeaky wheel.... The front page of the website has been updated from comments here.
(What I think we need is a PR team to come up with great evangelistic ideas and coordinate messages with the web team, news team and doc team.)
Dear Squeak Committee and Community,
I have been reading the comments about the composition of the Squeak.org home page this weekend with great interest. As I have started a web host for Smalltalk (SeasideParasol.com), I am confronted by the same problems you are about getting the word out about what I offer. I am working actively to generate publicity for my project -- and Squeak should be actively working to generate publicity for Squeak.
I was fired up enough about it to call Brad Fuller in Palo Alto (I'm in Toronto). I just got off the phone with him. I liked the things he had to say on the message board, and felt I'd ask him about how to volunteer to assist the Squeak.org project, and to ask how a public relations committee could be formed for Squeak. He told me that he made mention of a similar proposal some time ago and it was met with indifference.
That is simply not acceptable. It is imperative that a committee of Squeak Committee people (or hey, I'll join) convene on a regular basis to do the bare minimum to promote Squeak. If you think that public relations is not important, well, see if you disagree with either of the techniques that I tried last week. They failed for me, but they could work for Squeak.
- I posted to Slashdot and was rejected. I think that's because saying
"World's First Commercial Smalltalk Web Host" says I'm a business, and not a non-profit. Squeak is a non-profit project. It's a no-brainer that every time a new version of Squeak is launched that somebody take 30-seconds to post to Slashdot. I would point out that recently there was a post announcing the release of the Amiga 4.0 operating system. Amiga. But that's not the best part. The kicker is that there is no hardware yet built on planet Earth that can run this OS. It's expected sometime this year.
- I posted to Digg.com. I had no success with that. Digg raises the
profile with votes. It would be no problem to announce on this list that people should go to Digg, register and vote up the news item about a Squeak project. Mark Guzdial sits on 200 undergrads that he could announce to at Georgia Tech, and ask them to visit the site to vote an item up. I would point out that Avi Bryant did this for Dabble DB, and he asked on the Seaside message board for people to vote his item up.
These are simple things to do. But hey! If you have a better idea, great! The important thing is to have four or so Squeak people in a committee thinking about this on a regular basis. The "how" is debatable; the need for such a body is not. I am moving from journalism (dynamicword.com) to web hosting for Smalltalk. This stuff, from where I come from, is a no-brainer. If you don't respect public relations, because you are above it or something, then I say two things to you: 1. You have no concept of how the world works; and 2. If you ever complain that Squeak is underappreciated, and you let this call to action go without the immediate and determined formation of a Squeak public relations committee, then you have no right to complain.
There is a reason why Tide and Coke-a-Cola are the top of mind when people are asked -- suddenly! -- to name a laundry detergent or a soda pop. It's mere, simple repetition. That's marketing, that's public relations. Squeak is better than both. It's practically divine.
I get so incensed about this issue I could bite a rock. The bare minimum public relations awareness must come to the Squeak community. A committee doing the obvious must be formed immediately.
If Karl Rove worked for Squeak our problems would be over with very, very quickly. ;)
Chris Cunnington Toronto
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
One note, on the right, the "weekly squeak" box is up covering the last line or two of the "installation" box - this is both Flock and Konqueror. In Mozilla, the "weekly squeak" box is invisible.
I think this may be a result of this error reported by http://validator.w3.org:
Error Line 3 column 3740: there is no attribute "language".
...v><div id="news"><p><script language="JavaScript" src="http://feed2js.org//fe
Milan
On 2007 January 7 15:19, Brad Fuller wrote:
well... the squeaky wheel.... The front page of the website has been updated from comments here.
(What I think we need is a PR team to come up with great evangelistic ideas and coordinate messages with the web team, news team and doc team.)
+1, yea every time I come back the site looks better and better.
From: Joshua Gargus schwa@fastmail.us Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 22:41:59 -0800
On Jan 14, 2007, at 10:16 PM, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
+1 Looks fantastic!
Josh
_________________________________________________________________
From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has
Yes this is really better. Thanks a lot.
Stef
On 15 janv. 07, at 07:16, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
One note, on the right, the "weekly squeak" box is up covering the last line or two of the "installation" box - this is both Flock and Konqueror. In Mozilla, the "weekly squeak" box is invisible.
I think this may be a result of this error reported by http://validator.w3.org:
Error Line 3 column 3740: there is no attribute "language".
...v><div id="news"><p><script language="JavaScript" src="http://feed2js.org//fe
Milan
On 2007 January 7 15:19, Brad Fuller wrote:
well... the squeaky wheel.... The front page of the website has been updated from comments here.
(What I think we need is a PR team to come up with great evangelistic ideas and coordinate messages with the web team, news team and doc team.)
One small issue - the Weekly Squeak link points to minnow.
I'm not sure whether we forgot to announce this, but minnow.cc.gatech.edu is no more - the wiki has been moved to box2 under wiki.squeak.org, and minnow just contains redirects.
That link: Next to the headline Stay Current. Should be changed to the weeklysqueak.wordpress.com link instead.
Ron
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Cees de Groot Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:04 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site
One small issue - the Weekly Squeak link points to minnow.
I'm not sure whether we forgot to announce this, but minnow.cc.gatech.edu is no more - the wiki has been moved to box2 under wiki.squeak.org, and minnow just contains redirects.
First of all - many thanks!
But... I guess the Weekly Squeak box is being read and transformed from RSS feed on-th-fly with each user access. Am I right?
If yes, I'd recommend to cache the feed for some TTL period rather than transforming it on-the-fly. Then perform the full refresh once a day or spaw a separate process for this.
The user might be frustrated since the main part being displayed after a "rather long" while. More than 30 seconds for me today - really lumpish and annoying (see screenshot attached). I believe this is what we need to avoid.
However I really appreciate the work!
Cheers, Filip
On 15/01/07, Ron Teitelbaum Ron@usmedrec.com wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
It does look great! + 1!
Nice work!
Ron
Filip Stadnik wrote:
First of all - many thanks!
But... I guess the Weekly Squeak box is being read and transformed from RSS feed on-th-fly with each user access. Am I right?
Yes
If yes, I'd recommend to cache the feed for some TTL period rather than transforming it on-the-fly. Then perform the full refresh once a day or spaw a separate process for this.
That's strange. It's immediate for me.
Hi Brad,
Well, today the load speed is quite fast for me too.
Though, if I understand it correctly, the functionality is implemented as a reference to javascript, generated by PHP script (may-be-on-the-fly) in a foreign web site:
<script language="JavaScript" src="http://feed2js.org//feed2js.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fweeklysqueak.wordpress.com%2Ffeed%2F&chan=title&num=5&desc=55&date=y&targ=y" type="text/javascript"></script>
When the traffic from feed2js.org slows down significantly the above script execution delays too. This may result in an overall rendering slowdown or postpone rendering of certain components entirely as happened in my case yesterday.
If there is a php interpreter on the box it may be a good idea to install feed2js.php to the squeak.org machine to minimize the dependence on external, perhaps not so reliable, components.
If not, we can do the feed transformation in smalltalk.
What do you think?
Filip
On 15/01/07, Brad Fuller brad@bradfuller.com wrote:
Filip Stadnik wrote:
First of all - many thanks!
But... I guess the Weekly Squeak box is being read and transformed from RSS feed on-th-fly with each user access. Am I right?
Yes
If yes, I'd recommend to cache the feed for some TTL period rather than transforming it on-the-fly. Then perform the full refresh once a day or spaw a separate process for this.
That's strange. It's immediate for me.
Filip Stadnik wrote:
Hi Brad,
Well, today the load speed is quite fast for me too.
great
Though, if I understand it correctly, the functionality is implemented as a reference to javascript, generated by PHP script (may-be-on-the-fly) in a foreign web site:
<script language="JavaScript" src="http://feed2js.org//feed2js.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fweeklysqueak.wordpress.com%2Ffeed%2F&chan=title&num=5&desc=55&date=y&targ=y" type="text/javascript"></script>
When the traffic from feed2js.org slows down significantly the above script execution delays too. This may result in an overall rendering slowdown or postpone rendering of certain components entirely as happened in my case yesterday.
If there is a php interpreter on the box it may be a good idea to install feed2js.php to the squeak.org machine to minimize the dependence on external, perhaps not so reliable, components.
If not, we can do the feed transformation in smalltalk.
What do you think?
My personal opinion is to use feed2js.org to feed the news. If someone in the webteam wants to migrate the code over to our own box, that's fine with me. It is freely available on their site with instructions. I looked at it and it would take some work, though.
On 1/16/07, Brad Fuller brad@bradfuller.com wrote:
My personal opinion is to use feed2js.org to feed the news. If someone in the webteam wants to migrate the code over to our own box, that's fine with me. It is freely available on their site with instructions. I looked at it and it would take some work, though.
Don't forget that most PHP scripts are written by dorks who have to look up the word "security" in a dictionary and then fail to understand the explanation. So before putting third-party PHP scripts on Da Box, we need someone knowledgeable to review the full code...
really great work, thanks!
Anybody remembering the old look and content? http://web.archive.org/web/20050630025818/http://www.squeak.org/
or even back in 1999: http://web.archive.org/web/19990420235841/http://www.squeak.org/
Cheers, Adrian
On Jan 15, 2007, at 15:36 , Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
It does look great! + 1!
Nice work!
Ron
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
One note, on the right, the "weekly squeak" box is up covering the last line or two of the "installation" box
Is your text size set to normal?
- this is both Flock and Konqueror. In
Mozilla, the "weekly squeak" box is invisible.
What platform (not that I can fix it, but I'd like to know)
On 2007 January 15 15:48, Brad Fuller wrote:
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
One note, on the right, the "weekly squeak" box is up covering the last line or two of the "installation" box
Is your text size set to normal?
Do you mean "allow pages to choose their own fomt"? - On Flock and Firefox (where I do not see the news at all) I have it enabled.
However: I can report it now displays correctly on Flock and Konqueror, still do not see news at all on Mozilla Firefox.
- this is both Flock and Konqueror. In
Mozilla, the "weekly squeak" box is invisible.
What platform (not that I can fix it, but I'd like to know)
All browsers on SuSE 9.3 with some updates - Mozilla Firefox is version 1.5.0.8.
Milan
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 15 15:48, Brad Fuller wrote:
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
One note, on the right, the "weekly squeak" box is up covering the last line or two of the "installation" box
Is your text size set to normal?
Do you mean "allow pages to choose their own fomt"? - On Flock and Firefox (where I do not see the news at all) I have it enabled.
Selecting "ctl+0" (zero) selects text to "normal" in Firefox.
However: I can report it now displays correctly on Flock and Konqueror,
That's good. I changed the css a bit to accommodate growing boxes to a limited extent.
still do not see news at all on Mozilla Firefox. All browsers on SuSE 9.3 with some updates - Mozilla Firefox is version 1.5.0.8.
I'm on gentoo running Konqueror (3.5) and Firefox (1.5 and 2.0) and see it fine. That's just weird you don't see it at all, especially since Flock is from Mozilla source.
On 2007 January 16 14:58, Brad Fuller wrote:
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 15 15:48, Brad Fuller wrote:
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Thanks for the work on all changes, the site is now really informative, direct, and also good looking., with nicer color scheme (to me)
One note, on the right, the "weekly squeak" box is up covering the last line or two of the "installation" box
Is your text size set to normal?
Do you mean "allow pages to choose their own fomt"? - On Flock and Firefox (where I do not see the news at all) I have it enabled.
Selecting "ctl+0" (zero) selects text to "normal" in Firefox.
However: I can report it now displays correctly on Flock and Konqueror,
That's good. I changed the css a bit to accommodate growing boxes to a limited extent.
Brad,
your change must have made the difference for layout on my Flock and Konqueror (as I said earlier they now layout correctly).
And as to Firefox not displaying news .. having javascript disabled was not the best choice for a page with JS :)
It all works, and it really is informative, logically organized looks good and looks great to me (all subjective, but still - great work).
Thanks Milan
still do not see news at all on Mozilla Firefox. All browsers on SuSE 9.3 with some updates - Mozilla Firefox is version 1.5.0.8.
I'm on gentoo running Konqueror (3.5) and Firefox (1.5 and 2.0) and see it fine. That's just weird you don't see it at all, especially since Flock is from Mozilla source.
Hello all,
I fixed the typos. (I stop reading the list for a few days and look what happens!)
I have a couple of things to say. First I am very aware of how important it is to get the spelling right. I once lost a very big contract because of a typo when my explanation that nobody mentioned it and the software had really been used for over a year was not accepted.
I am and remain a very bad speller. I also have no sense of time. People that know when something happened amaze me. Everything I remember feels like yesterday to me.
I am using Firefox and it does have a nice spell checker, but I must have used IE for this post. I apologize for the typos.
With that out of the way I would also like to say that I am very interested in any and all comments on the news articles that I have been posting. Please feel free to let me know if you have a suggestion or criticism. Also if you notice a typo or grammatical error please let me know. I promise not to take offense.
Thanks for supporting the Web, Doc and News Teams!
Happy Squeaking,
Ron Teitelbaum Squeak News Team Member
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:27 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Could we fix the web site
Hi all
Happy new years. I wish you a lot of fun and success for your squeaking projects.
Now I would like to know if this is possible to fix the squeak web site. I was a nice idea to put the news seeds in the web site but but but.
- we do not control the contents
- some of them are not really squeaking
- some of them contain a lot of typos.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought Id reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...." Sorry but I do not know who is mathieu :) and this give me the impression to get in a private discussion.
I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org/ on important documents. So could we ut the welcome section right on the top. and the news after the portal.
Stef
Thanks ron. No problem. my remark was that the web site should find a way to protect itself from news feed if we do not control their contents. Feeds are cool. But I do not know if they were included automatically (and I thought ok what's happen if a guy write a totally silly point). So clearly identifying this is a news and we do not control it could be a way to solve that.
Stef
On 8 janv. 07, at 03:39, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Hello all,
I fixed the typos. (I stop reading the list for a few days and look what happens!)
I have a couple of things to say. First I am very aware of how important it is to get the spelling right. I once lost a very big contract because of a typo when my explanation that nobody mentioned it and the software had really been used for over a year was not accepted.
I am and remain a very bad speller. I also have no sense of time. People that know when something happened amaze me. Everything I remember feels like yesterday to me.
I am using Firefox and it does have a nice spell checker, but I must have used IE for this post. I apologize for the typos.
With that out of the way I would also like to say that I am very interested in any and all comments on the news articles that I have been posting. Please feel free to let me know if you have a suggestion or criticism. Also if you notice a typo or grammatical error please let me know. I promise not to take offense.
Thanks for supporting the Web, Doc and News Teams!
Happy Squeaking,
Ron Teitelbaum Squeak News Team Member
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak- dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:27 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Could we fix the web site
Hi all
Happy new years. I wish you a lot of fun and success for your squeaking projects.
Now I would like to know if this is possible to fix the squeak web site. I was a nice idea to put the news seeds in the web site but but but.
- we do not control the contents
- some of them are not really squeaking
- some of them contain a lot of typos.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought I’d reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...." Sorry but I do not know who is mathieu :) and this give me the impression to get in a private discussion.
I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org/ on important documents. So could we ut the welcome section right on the top. and the news after the portal.
Stef
Stef,
I guess the answer to your question is that we do have control. The news team is responsible to the community. I wrote an article previously that someone in our community took exception too. That person wrote me and I removed the article and issued an apology. I hope that the things that I have posted are interesting and informative. If they are not, or they do not properly reflect the community, then the community should feel free to discuss that. I'm very open and willing to discuss it.
I can tell you from experience that posting to the weeklysqueak is very interesting. The only feed back I get is an occasional comment on an article, and a few personal emails. The only way I know I'm doing something right is by looking at the stats of how many readers we get. I also follow the search terms to see what people are looking for, and the referrers to see who is linking to our articles.
Someone previously asked who is reading our news. It seems from the search terms that people that find us are looking for us and a specific article. But the number of search hits is much smaller then our readership which appears to be around 200 - 300 readers per article. I occasionally get 400-500 readers if the article is good. Other then a spike in readership, I have no idea if what I'm doing is worth while. It's a good thing I don't need a lot of feedback to enjoy doing this.
Your news team member,
Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 3:55 AM To: Ron@USMedRec.com Cc: 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list' Subject: Re: Could we fix the web site
Thanks ron. No problem. my remark was that the web site should find a way to protect itself from news feed if we do not control their contents. Feeds are cool. But I do not know if they were included automatically (and I thought ok what's happen if a guy write a totally silly point). So clearly identifying this is a news and we do not control it could be a way to solve that.
Stef
On 8 janv. 07, at 03:39, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
Hello all,
I fixed the typos. (I stop reading the list for a few days and look what happens!)
I have a couple of things to say. First I am very aware of how important it is to get the spelling right. I once lost a very big contract because of a typo when my explanation that nobody mentioned it and the software had really been used for over a year was not accepted.
I am and remain a very bad speller. I also have no sense of time. People that know when something happened amaze me. Everything I remember feels like yesterday to me.
I am using Firefox and it does have a nice spell checker, but I must have used IE for this post. I apologize for the typos.
With that out of the way I would also like to say that I am very interested in any and all comments on the news articles that I have been posting. Please feel free to let me know if you have a suggestion or criticism. Also if you notice a typo or grammatical error please let me know. I promise not to take offense.
Thanks for supporting the Web, Doc and News Teams!
Happy Squeaking,
Ron Teitelbaum Squeak News Team Member
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak- dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:27 AM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Subject: Could we fix the web site
Hi all
Happy new years. I wish you a lot of fun and success for your squeaking projects.
Now I would like to know if this is possible to fix the squeak web site. I was a nice idea to put the news seeds in the web site but but but.
- we do not control the contents
- some of them are not really squeaking
- some of them contain a lot of typos.
"Croquet Edit and Create 3d Objects Howard Stearns reciently replyed to a question from Mathieu. I thought Id reporduce his response here. Howard give a lot of very good information about Croquet support for third party tools...." Sorry but I do not know who is mathieu :) and this give me the impression to get in a private discussion.
I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org/ on important documents. So could we ut the welcome section right on the top. and the news after the portal.
Stef
"I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org"
I skimmed through this discussion and noticed a difference in opinion as to what the Squeak home page should look like and contain.
The web site already looks heaps better after Brad Fuller’s work.
I reckon it still lacks some vavoom though
Why don’t we ask the people at http://openusability.org openusability.org for their expert usability and design opinion and let the Squeak experts here focus on Squeak itself? g
I think this is a good idea... Anyone want to lead that? G?
On 1/21/07, GeertC geert.wl.claes@gmail.com wrote:
"I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org" I skimmed through this discussion and noticed a difference in opinion as to what the Squeak home page should look like and contain. The web site already looks heaps better after Brad Fuller's work. I reckon it still lacks some vavoom though Why don't we ask the people at openusability.org for their expert usability and design opinion and let the Squeak experts here focus on Squeak itself? g ________________________________ View this message in context: Re: Could we fix the web site Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I would say someone from the squeakfoundation could register squeak.org at openusability.org, but I am not sure whether they are that keen on my suggestion as you are Jason. I reckon if the seaside.st and squeak.org websites had more of a great looking, web 2.0 presence (whatever that might be) it could only be more beneficial for the smalltalk community.
Jason Rogers-4 wrote:
I think this is a good idea... Anyone want to lead that? G?
On 1/21/07, GeertC geert.wl.claes@gmail.com wrote:
"I want to be **proud** to put a link on http:/www.squeak.org" I skimmed through this discussion and noticed a difference in opinion as to what the Squeak home page should look like and contain. The web site already looks heaps better after Brad Fuller's work. I reckon it still lacks some vavoom though Why don't we ask the people at openusability.org for their expert usability and design opinion and let the Squeak experts here focus on Squeak itself? g ________________________________ View this message in context: Re: Could we fix the web site Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Jason Rogers
"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Proverbs 29:18
On 27-Jan-07, at 3:45 PM, GeertC wrote:
I would say someone from the squeakfoundation could register squeak.org at openusability.org, but I am not sure whether they are that keen on my suggestion as you are Jason.
I think it would be a fine idea *if* there is anybody able and willing to commit time to handle it and any resultant work. Without that it would merely be an embarrassing exercise in shouting "look how useless I am".
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: XER: Exclusive ERror
suggestion as you are Jason. I reckon if the seaside.st and squeak.org websites had more of a great looking, web 2.0 presence (whatever that might be) it could only be more beneficial for the smalltalk community.
Yes, I find it especially important to have a clean Web 2.0 like web site on seaside.st.
I already started to setup a site using pier, allowing us to have a much cleaner navigation and even show examples of Seaside applications within the site. What is missing (and what is something I cannot do professional enough myself) is a cool looking design in Web 2.0 style. If anybody can provide a Gimp/Photoshop an an Inkscape/Illustrator template I am more than happy to build the stylesheet and do the conversion to a new web site.
Cheers, Lukas
Lukas Renggli a écrit :
suggestion as you are Jason. I reckon if the seaside.st and squeak.org websites had more of a great looking, web 2.0 presence (whatever that might be) it could only be more beneficial for the smalltalk community.
Yes, I find it especially important to have a clean Web 2.0 like web site on seaside.st.
I already started to setup a site using pier, allowing us to have a much cleaner navigation and even show examples of Seaside applications within the site. What is missing (and what is something I cannot do professional enough myself) is a cool looking design in Web 2.0 style. If anybody can provide a Gimp/Photoshop an an Inkscape/Illustrator template I am more than happy to build the stylesheet and do the conversion to a new web site.
I think it's important. Nobody to help on this ?
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Adrian Lienhard -
Alexandre Jasmin -
Andreas Raab -
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bryce＠kampjes.demon.co.uk -
Cees de Groot -
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Damien Cassou -
Damien Pollet -
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Derek O'Connell -
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GeertC -
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J J -
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karl -
Karl
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Keith Hodges -
Klaus D. Witzel -
Lukas Renggli -
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Ron Teitelbaum -
stephane ducasse -
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tim Rowledge -
Todd Blanchard -
Yann Monclair