Hi
I'm having real problems installing squeak on my server environment - either a Debian etch or Unbuntu 7.10 , the machine is a 64 architecture.
Neither the unbuntu multiverse or the http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ repository have a working installable version of squeak.
ubuntu binary-amd64 is missing the squeak-vm package, and the squeak repository does not have a binary-amd64 architecture package.
I have tried to compile the vm but errors start with the /plugins/B3DAcceleratorPlugin/sqOpenGLRenderer.c:30: -- pretty sure that I dont have the libraries.
Note I don't have X installed.
Any suggestions on how to proceed ... apart from creating my own deb packages ...
Hi,
I'm also running Ubuntu 64bits. I use the squeak 32bits package from Debian associated with the ia32-libs package.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Edward Stow ed.stow@gmail.com wrote:
Hi
I'm having real problems installing squeak on my server environment - either a Debian etch or Unbuntu 7.10 , the machine is a 64 architecture.
Neither the unbuntu multiverse or the http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ repository have a working installable version of squeak.
ubuntu binary-amd64 is missing the squeak-vm package, and the squeak repository does not have a binary-amd64 architecture package.
I have tried to compile the vm but errors start with the /plugins/B3DAcceleratorPlugin/sqOpenGLRenderer.c:30: -- pretty sure that I dont have the libraries.
Note I don't have X installed.
Any suggestions on how to proceed ... apart from creating my own deb packages ...
--
Edward Stow
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:14 AM, Damien Cassou damien.cassou@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I'm also running Ubuntu 64bits. I use the squeak 32bits package from Debian associated with the ia32-libs package.
Did you use dpkg --force-architecture to manually load the debs?
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Edward Stow ed.stow@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:14 AM, Damien Cassou damien.cassou@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I'm also running Ubuntu 64bits. I use the squeak 32bits package from Debian associated with the ia32-libs package.
Did you use dpkg --force-architecture to manually load the debs?
No.
Edward Stow wrote:
Hi
I'm having real problems installing squeak on my server environment - either a Debian etch or Unbuntu 7.10 , the machine is a 64 architecture.
Neither the unbuntu multiverse or the http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ repository have a working installable version of squeak.
ubuntu binary-amd64 is missing the squeak-vm package, and the squeak repository does not have a binary-amd64 architecture package.
I have tried to compile the vm but errors start with the /plugins/B3DAcceleratorPlugin/sqOpenGLRenderer.c:30: -- pretty sure that I dont have the libraries.
Note I don't have X installed.
Any suggestions on how to proceed ... apart from creating my own deb packages ...
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Miguel Cobá
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
Thanks
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on amd64. Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can run 32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is not an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ? This installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package which contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from squeakvm.org.[1] It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name. It should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on amd64. Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can run 32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is not an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ? This installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package which contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from squeakvm.org.[1] It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name. It should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
Thanks that works.
But this is really a plea --- My guess is that 95% of potential users would have stopped by now when apt-get install does not work.
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 11:23 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on amd64. Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can run 32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is not an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ? This installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package which contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from squeakvm.org.[1] It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name. It should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
Thanks that works.
But this is really a plea --- My guess is that 95% of potential users would have stopped by now when apt-get install does not work.
Yes, sure it is. For the desktop side of the software the barrier is lowered with the one-click experience images. To be honest. How far will you get on a server if an easy installation is your barrier? squeak does not provide any start/stop scripts for the image. There is no maintenance scripts nor is there logging. You have to know your software in order to use it properly. You are right I often wish, too, that some things are achievable easier. But that includes the configuration of a apache/tomcat webserver, too. If you pass all this you still have to beat your sys admins. And that is a hard task :) Taking your arguments (from the sys ads) and my assumption that you are using java server stuff there is a huge gap. They say "un-supported" and they use debian which is an OS which is not supported. You should use ubuntu for that. They care about production systems and they use a 64 bit OS version. There are really less needs to have a 64 bit OS nowadays but there are still some problems. If I care about stability I use 32 bit these days. Are you using java? Java on 64 bit linux systems is just not stable. Openjdk is getting there slowly but it is IMHO not production ready. So I assume you use the 32 bit ones. Then were is the difference? That in debian there is package which installs you "legacy" 32 bit code on your 64 bit platform. That is exactly what my package does. If a lot of people think this is a way to go I would maintain such a package for some time.
I don't know what is your experience. Mine shows all the time that the good stuff is pain in first. But most of the time it was worth it. So don't give up. You have to know that you have at least one of the best communities I know behind you :)
I'm glad my package worked. Are there any other finding a wrapper package for 32 bit squeak on amd64 useful?
Norbert
2008/4/24 Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 11:23 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on amd64. Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can run 32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is not an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ? This installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package which contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from squeakvm.org.[1] It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name. It should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
Thanks that works.
But this is really a plea --- My guess is that 95% of potential users would have stopped by now when apt-get install does not work.
Yes, sure it is. For the desktop side of the software the barrier is lowered with the one-click experience images. To be honest. How far will you get on a server if an easy installation is your barrier? squeak does not provide any start/stop scripts for the image. There is no maintenance scripts nor is there logging. You have to know your software in order to use it properly. You are right I often wish, too, that some things are achievable easier. But that includes the configuration of a apache/tomcat webserver, too. If you pass all this you still have to beat your sys admins. And that is a hard task :) Taking your arguments (from the sys ads) and my assumption that you are using java server stuff there is a huge gap. They say "un-supported" and they use debian which is an OS which is not supported. You should use ubuntu for that. They care about production systems and they use a 64 bit OS version. There are really less needs to have a 64 bit OS nowadays but there are still some problems. If I care about stability I use 32 bit these days. Are you using java? Java on 64 bit linux systems is just not stable.
May I ask what makes you make such claims? Especially considering the amount of really large production 64 bit deployments.
Cheers Philippe
Openjdk is getting there slowly but it is IMHO not production ready. So I assume you use the 32 bit ones. Then were is the difference? That in debian there is package which installs you "legacy" 32 bit code on your 64 bit platform. That is exactly what my package does. If a lot of people think this is a way to go I would maintain such a package for some time.
I don't know what is your experience. Mine shows all the time that the good stuff is pain in first. But most of the time it was worth it. So don't give up. You have to know that you have at least one of the best communities I know behind you :)
I'm glad my package worked. Are there any other finding a wrapper package for 32 bit squeak on amd64 useful?
Norbert
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 10:34 +0200, Philippe Marschall wrote:
2008/4/24 Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 11:23 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
> I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org (section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on amd64. Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can run 32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is not an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ? This installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package which contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from squeakvm.org.[1] It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name. It should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
Thanks that works.
But this is really a plea --- My guess is that 95% of potential users would have stopped by now when apt-get install does not work.
Yes, sure it is. For the desktop side of the software the barrier is lowered with the one-click experience images. To be honest. How far will you get on a server if an easy installation is your barrier? squeak does not provide any start/stop scripts for the image. There is no maintenance scripts nor is there logging. You have to know your software in order to use it properly. You are right I often wish, too, that some things are achievable easier. But that includes the configuration of a apache/tomcat webserver, too. If you pass all this you still have to beat your sys admins. And that is a hard task :) Taking your arguments (from the sys ads) and my assumption that you are using java server stuff there is a huge gap. They say "un-supported" and they use debian which is an OS which is not supported. You should use ubuntu for that. They care about production systems and they use a 64 bit OS version. There are really less needs to have a 64 bit OS nowadays but there are still some problems. If I care about stability I use 32 bit these days. Are you using java? Java on 64 bit linux systems is just not stable.
May I ask what makes you make such claims? Especially considering the amount of really large production 64 bit deployments.
That is a good question. This is mainly influenced by my experience with 64 bit linux installs and java runtime problems in the past. But this could be outdated. I'm sorry it is not very clever to make such claims without having the right arguments. On the other side desktop java on my 64 bit ubuntu hardy system is a pain. I'm propably be misled.
Norbert
2008/4/24 Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 10:34 +0200, Philippe Marschall wrote:
2008/4/24 Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 11:23 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here: > > http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html > > as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak > > I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from squeak.org > (section other OSes) > > hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on amd64. Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can run 32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is not an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ? This installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package which contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from squeakvm.org.[1] It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name. It should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
Thanks that works.
But this is really a plea --- My guess is that 95% of potential users would have stopped by now when apt-get install does not work.
Yes, sure it is. For the desktop side of the software the barrier is lowered with the one-click experience images. To be honest. How far will you get on a server if an easy installation is your barrier? squeak does not provide any start/stop scripts for the image. There is no maintenance scripts nor is there logging. You have to know your software in order to use it properly. You are right I often wish, too, that some things are achievable easier. But that includes the configuration of a apache/tomcat webserver, too. If you pass all this you still have to beat your sys admins. And that is a hard task :) Taking your arguments (from the sys ads) and my assumption that you are using java server stuff there is a huge gap. They say "un-supported" and they use debian which is an OS which is not supported. You should use ubuntu for that. They care about production systems and they use a 64 bit OS version. There are really less needs to have a 64 bit OS nowadays but there are still some problems. If I care about stability I use 32 bit these days. Are you using java? Java on 64 bit linux systems is just not stable.
May I ask what makes you make such claims? Especially considering the amount of really large production 64 bit deployments.
That is a good question. This is mainly influenced by my experience with 64 bit linux installs and java runtime problems in the past. But this could be outdated. I'm sorry it is not very clever to make such claims without having the right arguments. On the other side desktop java on my 64 bit ubuntu hardy system is a pain. I'm propably be misled.
That is likely true. Often you'll either end up with blackdown, gcj, kaffee or some other low-end, low-quality solutions. Even if you get the Sun VM the Java plugin and Java Webstart are broken.
Cheers Philippe
2008/4/24 Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 11:23 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name
wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 08:20 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from
squeak.org
(section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not
available
for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and
their
bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems
that
should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say
that
I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other
os
vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
At the moment there is no packaged version which does compile on
amd64.
Otherwise it would be quite simple to create such a package. You can
run
32 bit applications on 64 bit but on a debian package level this is
not
an easy task to achieve.
If you want to setup an demonstration server why you don't take the installer script which comes with the vm package on squeakvm.org ?
This
installs the 32bit binaries on your machine.
I created a package for you which is a amd64 target ubuntu package
which
contains the binaries from the 3.10.1 i686 package from
squeakvm.org.[1]
It installs into /opt/squeak. You can use use
/opt/squeak/bin/squeakvm YOUR-IMAGE
to start squeak. Don't be misled by the ubuntu in the package name.
It
should install on debian as well.
Let me know if you have trouble using it.
[1] http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
Norbert
Thanks that works.
But this is really a plea --- My guess is that 95% of potential users would have stopped by now when apt-get install does not work.
Yes, sure it is. For the desktop side of the software the barrier is lowered with the one-click experience images. To be honest. How far will you get on a server if an easy installation is your barrier? squeak does not provide any start/stop scripts for the image. There is no maintenance scripts nor is there logging. You have to know your software in order to use it properly. You are right I often wish, too, that some things are achievable easier. But that includes the configuration of a apache/tomcat webserver, too. If you pass all this you still have to beat your sys admins. And that is a hard task :) Taking your arguments (from the sys ads) and my assumption that you are using java server stuff there is a huge gap. They say "un-supported" and they use debian which is an OS which is not supported. You should use ubuntu for that. They care about production systems and they use a 64 bit OS version. There are really less needs to have a 64 bit OS nowadays but there are still some problems. If I care about stability I use 32 bit these days. Are you using java? Java on 64 bit linux systems is just not stable. Openjdk is getting there slowly but it is IMHO not production ready. So I assume you use the 32 bit ones. Then were is the difference? That in debian there is package which installs you "legacy" 32 bit code on your 64 bit platform. That is exactly what my package does. If a lot of people think this is a way to go I would maintain such a package for some time.
I may not have explain it well: the package in Debian is a pure 64 bits package.
I can not understand the reasons for your answer or the reason of this thread: in an Debian lenny/sid amd64 machine: "apt-get install squeak-vm" just works.
Regards.
I may not have explain it well: the package in Debian is a pure 64 bits package.
I can not understand the reasons for your answer or the reason of this thread: in an Debian lenny/sid amd64 machine: "apt-get install squeak-vm" just works.
Yes but adding lenny to /etc/apt/sources.list as well as etch is a risky proposition for the health of my etch system.
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 10:53 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
I may not have explain it well: the package in Debian is a pure 64 bits package.
I can not understand the reasons for your answer or the reason of this thread: in an Debian lenny/sid amd64 machine: "apt-get install squeak-vm" just works.
Yes but adding lenny to /etc/apt/sources.list as well as etch is a risky proposition for the health of my etch system.
No, that is ok. Do
echo 'APT::Default-Release "etch"' >> /etc/apt/apt.conf
than it only installs packages from etch. If you do
apt-get -t lenny install ...
then it pulls the package and all of the dependencies from lenny channel. This way you leverage between having a stable system and having a system which fulfills actual needs. Do a search about package pinning as well if you are interested.
Norbert
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 10:53 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
I may not have explain it well: the package in Debian is a pure 64 bits package.
I can not understand the reasons for your answer or the reason of this thread: in an Debian lenny/sid amd64 machine: "apt-get install squeak-vm" just works.
Yes but adding lenny to /etc/apt/sources.list as well as etch is a risky proposition for the health of my etch system.
No, that is ok. Do
echo 'APT::Default-Release "etch"' >> /etc/apt/apt.conf
than it only installs packages from etch. If you do
apt-get -t lenny install ...
OK -- thanks I did not know how to do this ...
Then you can show them how enterprisey is Sun for not having an amd64 port for the java plugin:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4802695
Or maybe this for adobe flash:
http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2006/10/whats_so_difficult_64bit_editi.ht...
So, man, don't give up. Keep trying, use virtualbox on your amd64 machine and install a 32bits debian or use a chroot and *develop* your application. When you have it right show it to the managers, not the sysadmins. Convince them of the advantages, of the fact that you alone built that preciouse app and that if they support you, you can take them to the forbes 100 with just a pair of great smalltalk/squeak/seaside develpers, a couple of months and a simple call to the sysadmin to install a chroot in his beloved amd64 machine. Maybe, if you use sweet words the manager approve the money for a brand new machine where the sysadmin should have to install a chroot to host your marvelous app. You see, with a bit of effor you will have your own server. The sky is the limit.
Cheers, Miguel Cobá
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Edward Stow ed.stow@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from
squeak.org
(section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
Thanks
--
Edward Stow
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Miguel Cobá m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
Then you can show them how enterprisey is Sun for not having an amd64 port for the java plugin:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4802695
Or maybe this for adobe flash:
http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2006/10/whats_so_difficult_64bit_editi.ht...
This is not an argument that would hold any water, imho.
You need to be compare installing squeak with other development environments.
apt-get install ruby just works.
By now, except for squeak liking, I would have installed ruby and be done with squeak.
2008/4/24, Miguel Cobá m.coba.m@gmail.com:
Then you can show them how enterprisey is Sun for not having an amd64 port for the java plugin:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4802695
Or maybe this for adobe flash:
http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2006/10/whats_so_difficult_64bit_editi.ht...
Which both ain't server software.
Philippe
So, man, don't give up. Keep trying, use virtualbox on your amd64 machine and install a 32bits debian or use a chroot and *develop* your application. When you have it right show it to the managers, not the sysadmins. Convince them of the advantages, of the fact that you alone built that preciouse app and that if they support you, you can take them to the forbes 100 with just a pair of great smalltalk/squeak/seaside develpers, a couple of months and a simple call to the sysadmin to install a chroot in his beloved amd64 machine. Maybe, if you use sweet words the manager approve the money for a brand new machine where the sysadmin should have to install a chroot to host your marvelous app. You see, with a bit of effor you will have your own server. The sky is the limit.
Cheers, Miguel Cobá
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Edward Stow ed.stow@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from
squeak.org
(section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
And it doesn't. I have a hard time convincing my sys admins and their bosses to take seriously a package that does not have a straightforward install process on 64 bit machines.
chroot'ing in their words is for 'legacy and un-supported systems that should not be installed on a production server.'
I am trying to set up a demonstration server that will allow squeak with seaside to be considered a viable alternative. I should say that I'm not a sys admin and am feeling very frustrated with the lack of installable options.
So please ... could those that maintain the debian and / or other os vms create an installable 64 bit deb and / or rpm.
Thanks
--
Edward Stow
2008/4/24 Edward Stow ed.stow@gmail.com:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez m.coba.m@gmail.com wrote:
I use squeak inside a chroot as per instructions here:
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
as there is no 64 bit perfect setup for squeak
I installed squeak inside the chroot with the repositories from
squeak.org
(section other OSes)
hope this help
Yes is does -- it does confirm that a simple install is not available for amd64 architecture. By simple, I mean sudo apt-get install squeak.
If you use Debian, just use: apt-get install squeak-vm
squeak-vm is an official Debian package and it's available for several architectures (including amd64) in Debian lenny and sid since March, 5th: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/squeak-vm
It was announced in this list the day it was accepted.
Regards José L
Debian etch amd64 squeak redux.
1. http://ftp.squeak.org/debian does not contain debs for amd64 architecture.
2. Norbert Hartl has provided a package for the squeak-vm at http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
this can be installed after downloading
dpkg -i squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
You will also need the SqueakV3.9.sources and an image file from http://squeak.org/Download/
squeak-vm will look for these files in the same directory used to start squeak-vm when started as:
squeak-vm <your.image>
See http://www.squeakvm.org/unix/doc/squeak.html for command line arguments.
3. Debian lenny includes squeak-vm on amd64 architecture.
4. Also note that ubuntu 8.04 also has squeak-vm. (untried as yet)
5. This issue has been reported on Mantis at http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7029 and I have been asked to ask for others that know how to contribute to making available suitable package on ftp.squeak.org/debian.
From my limited knowledge of deb packages the basics are already
available : Norbets deb plus the other i386 packages are needed to be put together.
-- Thanks
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 11:16 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
Debian etch amd64 squeak redux.
http://ftp.squeak.org/debian does not contain debs for amd64 architecture.
Norbert Hartl has provided a package for the squeak-vm at
http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
this can be installed after downloading
dpkg -i squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
You will also need the SqueakV3.9.sources and an image file from http://squeak.org/Download/
squeak-vm will look for these files in the same directory used to start squeak-vm when started as:
squeak-vm <your.image>
See http://www.squeakvm.org/unix/doc/squeak.html for command line arguments.
Debian lenny includes squeak-vm on amd64 architecture.
Also note that ubuntu 8.04 also has squeak-vm. (untried as yet)
This issue has been reported on Mantis at
http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7029 and I have been asked to ask for others that know how to contribute to making available suitable package on ftp.squeak.org/debian.
Or to say it other words: In order to run squeak you need
- an operating system (I know it's not true but that's not the point here :) Sorry SqueakNOS folks) - a virtual machine - a squeak image
Each of them has a 32 bit and a 64 bit variant.
With the debian packages you can have
- a 32 bit vm in a 32 bit debian installation (everything works) - a 64 bit vm in a 64 bit debian (you will have trouble to use plugins like FFI. That's the reason I don't use it)
My package tries to close the gap so that you can have
- a 32 bit vm in a 64 bit installation
All of these confusion refers _only_ to virtual machines that read 32 bit images. So imagine there were people which would like to use a 64 bit image :) AFAIK with squeak every combination of OS, vm and image is possible.
From my limited knowledge of deb packages the basics are already
available : Norbets deb plus the other i386 packages are needed to be put together.
can you clarify this? The latter sentence doesn't make any sense to me. I put this package together for you in only a few minutes so I'm sure it is not perfect. What might be missing are dependencies. The only one I added are ia32-libs. Everything else which is missing need to be put in the dependencies of this archive. But if there are really i386 packags that are needed (I doubt it) than the trouble just starts again because you won't be able to install them on amd64. I don't know if you are the only user of the package but tell me if you have trouble I'll have look what I can do.
Norbert
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Norbert Hartl norbert@hartl.name wrote:
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 11:16 +1000, Edward Stow wrote:
Debian etch amd64 squeak redux.
[ ... stuff deleted ...]
From my limited knowledge of deb packages the basics are already
available : Norbets deb plus the other i386 packages are needed to be put together.
can you clarify this?
The ftp.squeak.org/debian repository i386 architecture [1] also contained packages : squeak squeak-vm squeak-image3.9 squeak-image3.9univ squeak-sources3.9
[1] http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/dists/etch/main/binary-i386/Packages
The squeak package installs a starter 'squeak' shell script that conviently copies the images and source to your current directory.
So putting the amd64 package with these other packages would provide a complete and equivalent amd64 installation.
to me. I put this package together for you in only a few minutes so I'm sure it is not perfect. What might be missing are dependencies. The only one I added are ia32-libs. Everything else which is missing need to be put in the dependencies of this archive. But if there are really i386 packags that are needed (I doubt it) than the trouble just starts again because you won't be able to install them on amd64. I don't know if you are the only user of the package but tell me if you have trouble I'll have look what I can do.
Norbert
The package worked for me perfectly. The dependencies were resolved correctly in a fresh debian etch installation.
can you clarify this?
The ftp.squeak.org/debian repository i386 architecture [1] also contained packages : squeak squeak-vm squeak-image3.9 squeak-image3.9univ squeak-sources3.9
Ah, ok, the first is a virtual package and all after the vm are not architecture dependent. So it has be ok.
Norbert
Norbert Hartl napísal:
can you clarify this?
The ftp.squeak.org/debian repository i386 architecture [1] also contained packages : squeak squeak-vm squeak-image3.9 squeak-image3.9univ squeak-sources3.9
Ah, ok, the first is a virtual package and all after the vm are not architecture dependent. So it has be ok.
Norbert
Hi, I know that amd64 binary packages are missing from that repostory. I do not have root access to a amd64 machine where I could myself try to build those packages. (when I was buying new machine, I have chosen 32-bit machine rather than 64-bits to avoid problems)
Here is a complete procedure how to build those binaries from source packages: ------------------------------------------------- To build squeak binary packages, please try the following procedure:
- add these lines:
deb http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ stable main deb-src http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ stable main
to your /etc/apt/sources.list (you, alas, need root-account but that is needed anyway for installing build dependencies so there is no way around it)
- perform
apt-get update
- go to some convenient working directory and perform
apt-get source squeak
This will fetch source package.
- install packages that must be installed before you can build squeak virtual machine:
# (specific for Debian Etch) apt-get install debhelper xlibs-static-dev g++ libxpm-dev \ libtool docbook-to-man libxt-dev fakeroot
- build squeak packages
cd squeak-3.9.8 dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot cd ..
- You should see newly created *.deb files
squeak*.deb squeak-vm*.deb squeak-plugin*.deb
- So, now if you get the image file:
apt-get install squeak-image3.9 squeak-plugin-image
and if you install the packages you have just built:
dpkg -i *.deb
Then if you go to some convenient directory where you have (want to have) image files, you can start Squeak as follows:
squeak ------------------------------------------------- Does this work for you? Is it necessary to switch to special Squeak VM version? Are those (architecture independent) packages providing Squeak images usable on amd64?
Regards
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 12:09 +0200, Matej Kosik wrote:
Norbert Hartl napísal:
can you clarify this?
The ftp.squeak.org/debian repository i386 architecture [1] also contained packages : squeak squeak-vm squeak-image3.9 squeak-image3.9univ squeak-sources3.9
Ah, ok, the first is a virtual package and all after the vm are not architecture dependent. So it has be ok.
Norbert
Hi, I know that amd64 binary packages are missing from that repostory. I do not have root access to a amd64 machine where I could myself try to build those packages. (when I was buying new machine, I have chosen 32-bit machine rather than 64-bits to avoid problems)
Here is a complete procedure how to build those binaries from source packages:
To build squeak binary packages, please try the following procedure:
add these lines:
deb http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ stable main deb-src http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ stable main
to your /etc/apt/sources.list (you, alas, need root-account but that is needed anyway for installing build dependencies so there is no way around it)
perform
apt-get update
go to some convenient working directory and perform
apt-get source squeak
This will fetch source package.
install packages that must be installed before you can build squeak virtual machine:
# (specific for Debian Etch) apt-get install debhelper xlibs-static-dev g++ libxpm-dev \ libtool docbook-to-man libxt-dev fakeroot
build squeak packages
cd squeak-3.9.8 dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot cd ..
You should see newly created *.deb files
squeak*.deb squeak-vm*.deb squeak-plugin*.deb
So, now if you get the image file:
apt-get install squeak-image3.9 squeak-plugin-image
and if you install the packages you have just built:
dpkg -i *.deb
Then if you go to some convenient directory where you have (want to have) image files, you can start Squeak as follows:
squeak
I don't understand what you are after? A amd64 vm is in the upstream of ubuntu (and debian I think).
squeak-vm: Installed: 1:3.9.8-3ubuntu1 Candidate: 1:3.9.8-3ubuntu1 Version table: *** 1:3.9.8-3ubuntu1 0 500 http://de.archive.ubuntu.com hardy/multiverse Packages
So, apt-get install squeak squeak-plugin does install the vm, the plugin and a 3.8 image for the plugin.
Does this work for you? Is it necessary to switch to special Squeak VM version? Are those (architecture independent) packages providing Squeak images usable on amd64?
Why not? The vm reads 32 bit image files and the images are 32 bit. Do mean anything different from that?
Norbert
I forget to question. If you don't know about that vm and it is working who has done it? :) I think at least the package builder had to patch the vm for 64 bit.
Norbert
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 12:09 +0200, Matej Kosik wrote:
Norbert Hartl napísal:
can you clarify this?
The ftp.squeak.org/debian repository i386 architecture [1] also contained packages : squeak squeak-vm squeak-image3.9 squeak-image3.9univ squeak-sources3.9
Ah, ok, the first is a virtual package and all after the vm are not architecture dependent. So it has be ok.
Norbert
Hi, I know that amd64 binary packages are missing from that repostory. I do not have root access to a amd64 machine where I could myself try to build those packages. (when I was buying new machine, I have chosen 32-bit machine rather than 64-bits to avoid problems)
Here is a complete procedure how to build those binaries from source packages:
To build squeak binary packages, please try the following procedure:
add these lines:
deb http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ stable main deb-src http://ftp.squeak.org/debian/ stable main
to your /etc/apt/sources.list (you, alas, need root-account but that is needed anyway for installing build dependencies so there is no way around it)
perform
apt-get update
go to some convenient working directory and perform
apt-get source squeak
This will fetch source package.
install packages that must be installed before you can build squeak virtual machine:
# (specific for Debian Etch) apt-get install debhelper xlibs-static-dev g++ libxpm-dev \ libtool docbook-to-man libxt-dev fakeroot
build squeak packages
cd squeak-3.9.8 dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot cd ..
You should see newly created *.deb files
squeak*.deb squeak-vm*.deb squeak-plugin*.deb
So, now if you get the image file:
apt-get install squeak-image3.9 squeak-plugin-image
and if you install the packages you have just built:
dpkg -i *.deb
Then if you go to some convenient directory where you have (want to have) image files, you can start Squeak as follows:
squeak
Does this work for you? Is it necessary to switch to special Squeak VM version? Are those (architecture independent) packages providing Squeak images usable on amd64?
Regards
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 10:25:22AM +0200, Norbert Hartl wrote:
With the debian packages you can have
- a 32 bit vm in a 32 bit debian installation (everything works)
- a 64 bit vm in a 64 bit debian (you will have trouble to use plugins like FFI. That's the reason I don't use it)
A bit off topic, but I have recently gotten FFI working on 64 bit Linux:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2008-April/001900.html
However the changes are rather extensive and are not yet complete for other platforms, so I would not expect this to be quickly incorporated into the VM distributions.
There has been some progress on other plugins as well, summarized here:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2007-December/001703.html
FilePlugin, SocketPlugin, BalloonEnginePlugin, BitBltSimulation, OSProcessPlugin, XDisplayControlPlugin and AioPlugin have been 64 bit clean for a long time.
So progress is slowly being made.
Dave
Edward Stow wrote:
Debian etch amd64 squeak redux.
http://ftp.squeak.org/debian does not contain debs for amd64 architecture.
Norbert Hartl has provided a package for the squeak-vm at
http://selfish.org/files/deb/squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
this can be installed after downloading
dpkg -i squeak-vm-i686_0.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
You will also need the SqueakV3.9.sources and an image file from http://squeak.org/Download/
squeak-vm will look for these files in the same directory used to start squeak-vm when started as:
squeak-vm <your.image>
See http://www.squeakvm.org/unix/doc/squeak.html for command line arguments.
- Debian lenny includes squeak-vm on amd64 architecture.
If you are using Damien Cassou images (that does not contain .sources files) you'll need to download the correct sources files from squeak.org because the debian packages just install the vm and not any .sources files. (as in point 2). You'll have to copy the sources files to every directory where you have an image.
Miguel Cobá
Also note that ubuntu 8.04 also has squeak-vm. (untried as yet)
This issue has been reported on Mantis at
http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7029 and I have been asked to ask for others that know how to contribute to making available suitable package on ftp.squeak.org/debian.
From my limited knowledge of deb packages the basics are already
available : Norbets deb plus the other i386 packages are needed to be put together.
-- Thanks
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Damien Cassou -
David T. Lewis -
Edward Stow -
José Luis Redrejo -
Matej Kosik -
Miguel Cobá -
Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez
-
Norbert Hartl -
Philippe Marschall