Hello!
I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for the coming 2001 Squeak board election.
Admiring and putting a very high hopes on what VPRI http://www.vpri.orgdoes these days, thinking that the moment has come and we could have some of it's public available projects (OMeta, Worlds) being included in the current mainstream Squeak. OMeta http://www.tinlizzie.org/ometa/ is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching, thus it could be used in a lot of places in the current Squeak, while generalising and simplifying a lot of things (XML parsing, styling, working with files and browsers, ect) just today! Another task, I wanted to be realised with OMeta, is getting the localised Smalltalk language programming support for non-english speakers. And the long term goal, is making modular Squeak trough Yoshiki's SqueakBootstrapperhttps://github.com/yoshikiohshima/SqueakBootstrapper . Getting the green light to these novel projects in the current more or less stable Squeak 4.x today, could really bring closer all the known forks and projects, like EToys, Croquet/Cobalt, LivelyKernel, ect. and will prepare the Squeak to it's future, meaning: an upcoming Ian Piumarta's COLA architecture http://piumarta.com/software/cola/.
Best regards, Nikolay Suslov http://www.krestianstvo.org http://nsuslovi.blogspot.com
"Nikolay" == Nikolay Suslov nsuslovi@gmail.com writes:
Nikolay> I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for the coming 2001 Squeak board Nikolay> election.
I think you're about 10 years too late!
Just kidding... welcome to the slate.
Nikolay> Admiring and putting a very high hopes on what VPRI Nikolay> http://www.vpri.orgdoes these days, thinking that the moment Nikolay> has come and we could have some of it's public available Nikolay> projects (OMeta, Worlds) being included in the current Nikolay> mainstream Squeak. OMeta http://www.tinlizzie.org/ometa/ is a Nikolay> new object-oriented language for pattern matching, thus it Nikolay> could be used in a lot of places in the current Squeak, while Nikolay> generalising and simplifying a lot of things (XML parsing, Nikolay> styling, working with files and browsers, ect)
OMeta rocks!
Nikolay, I join you in thinking OMeta could be a great addition to core Squeak, expecially every time I have to implement a XYZZY class>>readFrom: aStream for a non-trivial class. A look at Date, Number will provide some evidence of potential use for OMeta with a _readable_ grammar specification.
On the downside, what I found weak in OMeta is exception/error handling... (any suggestions or pointers to solutions in this area are appreciated.)
Finally, Nikolay you'll get my vote! Bye Enrico
On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 18:00, Nikolay Suslov nsuslovi@gmail.com wrote:
Hello!
I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for the coming 2001 Squeak board election.
Admiring and putting a very high hopes on what VPRI does these days, thinking that the moment has come and we could have some of it's public available projects (OMeta, Worlds) being included in the current mainstream Squeak. OMeta is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching, thus it could be used in a lot of places in the current Squeak, while generalising and simplifying a lot of things (XML parsing, styling, working with files and browsers, ect) just today! Another task, I wanted to be realised with OMeta, is getting the localised Smalltalk language programming support for non-english speakers. And the long term goal, is making modular Squeak trough Yoshiki's SqueakBootstrapper. Getting the green light to these novel projects in the current more or less stable Squeak 4.x today, could really bring closer all the known forks and projects, like EToys, Croquet/Cobalt, LivelyKernel, ect. and will prepare the Squeak to it's future, meaning: an upcoming Ian Piumarta's COLA architecture.
Best regards, Nikolay Suslov http://www.krestianstvo.org http://nsuslovi.blogspot.com
On 27.03.2011, at 18:00, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
Hello!
I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for the coming 2001 Squeak board election.
Admiring and putting a very high hopes on what VPRI does these days, thinking that the moment has come and we could have some of it's public available projects (OMeta, Worlds) being included in the current mainstream Squeak. OMeta is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching, thus it could be used in a lot of places in the current Squeak, while generalising and simplifying a lot of things (XML parsing, styling, working with files and browsers, ect) just today! Another task, I wanted to be realised with OMeta, is getting the localised Smalltalk language programming support for non-english speakers. And the long term goal, is making modular Squeak trough Yoshiki's SqueakBootstrapper. Getting the green light to these novel projects in the current more or less stable Squeak 4.x today, could really bring closer all the known forks and projects, like EToys, Croquet/Cobalt, LivelyKernel, ect. and will prepare the Squeak to it's future, meaning: an upcoming Ian Piumarta's COLA architecture.
Best regards, Nikolay Suslov http://www.krestianstvo.org http://nsuslovi.blogspot.com
Great! Thanks for running :)
- Bert -
Nikolay,
Yes, I welcome as well that you want to make the use of OMeta in Squeak easier and demonstrate the use of it to make things simpler....
--Hannes
P.S. The last activities on OMeta were May 2010;
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/OMeta' user: '' password: ''
Is there some newer code somewhere?
Another question: You want to make OMeta part of Squeak?
Could you please elaborate a bit more about the examples you mention?
On 3/28/11, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 27.03.2011, at 18:00, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
Hello!
I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for the coming 2001 Squeak board election.
Admiring and putting a very high hopes on what VPRI does these days, thinking that the moment has come and we could have some of it's public available projects (OMeta, Worlds) being included in the current mainstream Squeak. OMeta is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching, thus it could be used in a lot of places in the current Squeak, while generalising and simplifying a lot of things (XML parsing, styling, working with files and browsers, ect) just today! Another task, I wanted to be realised with OMeta, is getting the localised Smalltalk language programming support for non-english speakers. And the long term goal, is making modular Squeak trough Yoshiki's SqueakBootstrapper. Getting the green light to these novel projects in the current more or less stable Squeak 4.x today, could really bring closer all the known forks and projects, like EToys, Croquet/Cobalt, LivelyKernel, ect. and will prepare the Squeak to it's future, meaning: an upcoming Ian Piumarta's COLA architecture.
Best regards, Nikolay Suslov http://www.krestianstvo.org http://nsuslovi.blogspot.com
Great! Thanks for running :)
- Bert -
On 2011/03/29 11:30, Hannes Hirzel wrote:
Nikolay,
Yes, I welcome as well that you want to make the use of OMeta in Squeak easier and demonstrate the use of it to make things simpler....
--Hannes
P.S. The last activities on OMeta were May 2010;
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/OMeta' user: '' password: ''
Is there some newer code somewhere?
OMeta's still cooking along. The SqueakSource repo's currently broken, but apparently that will be fixed Real Soon Now: http://vpri.org/pipermail/ometa/2011-February/000397.html
frank
Another question: You want to make OMeta part of Squeak?
Could you please elaborate a bit more about the examples you mention?
On 3/28/11, Bert Freudenbergbert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 27.03.2011, at 18:00, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
Hello!
I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for the coming 2001 Squeak board election.
Admiring and putting a very high hopes on what VPRI does these days, thinking that the moment has come and we could have some of it's public available projects (OMeta, Worlds) being included in the current mainstream Squeak. OMeta is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching, thus it could be used in a lot of places in the current Squeak, while generalising and simplifying a lot of things (XML parsing, styling, working with files and browsers, ect) just today! Another task, I wanted to be realised with OMeta, is getting the localised Smalltalk language programming support for non-english speakers. And the long term goal, is making modular Squeak trough Yoshiki's SqueakBootstrapper. Getting the green light to these novel projects in the current more or less stable Squeak 4.x today, could really bring closer all the known forks and projects, like EToys, Croquet/Cobalt, LivelyKernel, ect. and will prepare the Squeak to it's future, meaning: an upcoming Ian Piumarta's COLA architecture.
Best regards, Nikolay Suslov http://www.krestianstvo.org http://nsuslovi.blogspot.com
Great! Thanks for running :)
- Bert -
Hello,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@angband.za.org
wrote:
MCHttpRepository
location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/OMeta' user: '' password: ''Is there some newer code somewhere?
OMeta's still cooking along.
Yes, still waiting!
The SqueakSource repo's currently broken, but apparently that will be fixed Real Soon Now: http://vpri.org/pipermail/ometa/2011-February/000397.html
SqueakSource repo's is not really broken, some issues has been appeared with loading OMeta package into the current Squeak 4.2. Manually, first you load OMeta2-Preload-hmm.11.mcz and then you need to merge OMeta2-Postload-hmm.11.mcz (not to load). And this should work.
Regards, Nikolay
On 29.03.2011, at 15:03, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
SqueakSource repo's is not really broken, some issues has been appeared with loading OMeta package into the current Squeak 4.2. Manually, first you load OMeta2-Preload-hmm.11.mcz and then you need to merge OMeta2-Postload-hmm.11.mcz (not to load). And this should work.
Did we break Monticello? This used to work fine.
- Bert -
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.dewrote:
On 29.03.2011, at 15:03, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
SqueakSource repo's is not really broken, some issues has been appeared with loading OMeta package into the current Squeak 4.2. Manually, first you load OMeta2-Preload-hmm.11.mcz and then you need to merge OMeta2-Postload-hmm.11.mcz (not to load). And this should work.
Did we break Monticello? This used to work fine.
No, seems to be Monticello is Ok. The problem begins with "PackageInfo-Base-cmm.50" from the trunk, something wrong with it. Roll-backing to "PackageInfo-Base-cmm.49" brings OMeta to load successfully in current Squeak.
Regards, Nikolay
- Bert -
On 29.03.2011, at 18:20, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote: On 29.03.2011, at 15:03, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
SqueakSource repo's is not really broken, some issues has been appeared with loading OMeta package into the current Squeak 4.2. Manually, first you load OMeta2-Preload-hmm.11.mcz and then you need to merge OMeta2-Postload-hmm.11.mcz (not to load). And this should work.
Did we break Monticello? This used to work fine.
No, seems to be Monticello is Ok. The problem begins with "PackageInfo-Base-cmm.50" from the trunk, something wrong with it. Roll-backing to "PackageInfo-Base-cmm.49" brings OMeta to load successfully in current Squeak.
Regards, Nikolay
Ah. Yes, PackageInfo is quite finicky at times.
After loading OMeta2-Preload, the default PackageOrganizer correctly holds the two special instances for OMeta2-Preload and OMeta2-Preload. Their classes are OM2PreloadPackageInfo and OM2PostPackageInfo, respectively. That's because they register themselves in their class-side initializers.
But "PackageInfo named: 'OMeta2-Preload'" does not answer the registered instance. It creates a generic "OMeta2" PackageInfo instance instead, and answers that.
Seems like the change to #named: did the opposite of what it was supposed to do in this case ... at least the old registration scheme seems to be at odds with the new class-side packageName method.
Reverting #named: to Avi's old version makes the OMeta package infos work correctly. Maybe we should get rid of the automagic registration again? Chris?
- Bert -
Sorry for the delay. After 10 days of no access to a computer, I'm finally getting back.
Seems like the change to #named: did the opposite of what it was supposed to do in this case ... at least the old registration scheme seems to be at odds
I remember one of the goals for PackageInfo class>>#packageName is to push for an unambiguous association between the Smalltalk package domain (e.g, PackageInfos, Classes and MethodReferences) and the Monticello package domain (MCPackages, MCClassDefinitions, MCMethodDefinitions). One to one.
PackageInfo subclasses would implement #packageName on the class-side. So, if OMeta declared the following:
OM2PreloadPackageInfo class>>packageName ^ 'OMeta2-Preload'
then the correct subclass-instance would be answered and all is fine. The package name of OMeta can be referenced without a hardcoded string.
I then used this to solve an aggravation where instances of PackageInfo had already gotten registered even though they should have been the subclass instance. Probably this is no longer necessary, I have reverted that change and will monitor going forward.
- Chris
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 29.03.2011, at 18:20, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 29.03.2011, at 15:03, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
SqueakSource repo's is not really broken, some issues has been appeared with loading OMeta package into the current Squeak 4.2. Manually, first you load OMeta2-Preload-hmm.11.mcz and then you need to merge OMeta2-Postload-hmm.11.mcz (not to load). And this should work.
Did we break Monticello? This used to work fine.
No, seems to be Monticello is Ok. The problem begins with "PackageInfo-Base-cmm.50" from the trunk, something wrong with it. Roll-backing to "PackageInfo-Base-cmm.49" brings OMeta to load successfully in current Squeak.
Regards, Nikolay
Ah. Yes, PackageInfo is quite finicky at times. After loading OMeta2-Preload, the default PackageOrganizer correctly holds the two special instances for OMeta2-Preload and OMeta2-Preload. Their classes are OM2PreloadPackageInfo and OM2PostPackageInfo, respectively. That's because they register themselves in their class-side initializers. But "PackageInfo named: 'OMeta2-Preload'" does not answer the registered instance. It creates a generic "OMeta2" PackageInfo instance instead, and answers that. Seems like the change to #named: did the opposite of what it was supposed to do in this case ... at least the old registration scheme seems to be at odds with the new class-side packageName method. Reverting #named: to Avi's old version makes the OMeta package infos work correctly. Maybe we should get rid of the automagic registration again? Chris?
- Bert -
On 2011/03/29 14:03, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@angband.za.org mailto:frank.shearar@angband.za.org> wrote:
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/OMeta' user: '' password: '' Is there some newer code somewhere? OMeta's still cooking along.Yes, still waiting!
The SqueakSource repo's currently broken, but apparently that will be fixed Real Soon Now: http://vpri.org/pipermail/ometa/2011-February/000397.htmlSqueakSource repo's is not really broken, some issues has been appeared with loading OMeta package into the current Squeak 4.2. Manually, first you load OMeta2-Preload-hmm.11.mcz and then you need to merge OMeta2-Postload-hmm.11.mcz (not to load). And this should work.
Well, last time I tried to load Ometa2 (you'll see my attempt as the email to which Yoshiki replied), I got a whole bunch of Undeclareds. That counts as broken, in my book :)
frank
Hello,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.comwrote:
Nikolay,
Yes, I welcome as well that you want to make the use of OMeta in Squeak easier and demonstrate the use of it to make things simpler....
--Hannes
P.S. The last activities on OMeta were May 2010;
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/OMeta' user: '' password: ''
Is there some newer code somewhere?
Another question: You want to make OMeta part of Squeak?
Could you please elaborate a bit more about the examples you mention?
You could find a lot of information at VPRI wikihttp://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Main_Page. There is the "Text Field Spec for LObjects" project, which was announced in 2010 here: http://www.mail-archive.com/fonc@vpri.org/msg01279.html, basing on the "Mochi" system, as Ted Kaehler said: "It has many half-finished experiments in it, and a fair amount of just plain wreckage". Although there are many of working OMeta's examples for Squeak (ForAll language, SpecParser, Nile), Worlds are also presented there and it is an updatable image. Another is Yoshiki's SqueakBootStrapperhttps://github.com/yoshikiohshima/SqueakBootstrapperimage with BootStrapEncoder/parser and of course: OMeta/JS http://www.tinlizzie.org/ometa-js wiki. Now thinking, that we need to ask the VPRI team for official permission on using and experimenting with these stuff in Squeak, especially concerning to the image side parts of "Mochi" system. Bert, may be you could bring some clearance on this, please?
Regards, Nikolay
On 29.03.2011, at 15:48, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote: Nikolay,
Yes, I welcome as well that you want to make the use of OMeta in Squeak easier and demonstrate the use of it to make things simpler....
--Hannes
P.S. The last activities on OMeta were May 2010;
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/OMeta' user: '' password: ''
Is there some newer code somewhere?
Another question: You want to make OMeta part of Squeak?
Could you please elaborate a bit more about the examples you mention?
You could find a lot of information at VPRI wiki. There is the "Text Field Spec for LObjects" project, which was announced in 2010 here: http://www.mail-archive.com/fonc@vpri.org/msg01279.html, basing on the "Mochi" system, as Ted Kaehler said: "It has many half-finished experiments in it, and a fair amount of just plain wreckage". Although there are many of working OMeta's examples for Squeak (ForAll language, SpecParser, Nile), Worlds are also presented there and it is an updatable image. Another is Yoshiki's SqueakBootStrapper image with BootStrapEncoder/parser and of course: OMeta/JS wiki. Now thinking, that we need to ask the VPRI team for official permission on using and experimenting with these stuff in Squeak, especially concerning to the image side parts of "Mochi" system. Bert, may be you could bring some clearance on this, please?
It's released under MIT, which means you don't need to ask specific permission (but note that I am only a contractor to VPRI, cannot speak for them).
And please remember to change the email subject when the topic diverges ;)
- Bert -
Nikolay,
On 3/29/11, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 29.03.2011, at 15:48, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote: Nikolay,
Another question: You want to make OMeta part of Squeak?
Could you please elaborate a bit more about the examples you mention?
You could find a lot of information at VPRI wiki. There is the "Text Field Spec for LObjects" project, which was announced in 2010 here: http://www.mail-archive.com/fonc@vpri.org/msg01279.html, basing on the "Mochi" system, as Ted Kaehler said: "It has many half-finished experiments in it, and a fair amount of just plain wreckage".
http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m2010002_lobjects.pdf
Do you think to use this as a base to develop a word processor in Squeak, or a desktop publishing system, or to revive the 'Dynabook dynamic essay' idea?
Although
there are many of working OMeta's examples for Squeak (ForAll language, SpecParser, Nile), Worlds are also presented there and it is an updatable image.
Could you specify the links more precisely?
Another is Yoshiki's SqueakBootStrapper image with
BootStrapEncoder/parser and of course: OMeta/JS wiki. Now thinking, that we need to ask the VPRI team for official permission on using and experimenting with these stuff in Squeak, especially concerning to the image side parts of "Mochi" system. Bert, may be you could bring some clearance on this, please?
It's released under MIT, which means you don't need to ask specific permission (but note that I am only a contractor to VPRI, cannot speak for them).
This is a lot -- where you do think you would like to focus on?
--Hannes
Hannes,
Thanks for questions, I'll try to be as clear as possible.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.comwrote:
http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m2010002_lobjects.pdf
Do you think to use this as a base to develop a word processor in Squeak, or a desktop publishing system, or to revive the 'Dynabook dynamic essay' idea?
No. Everything what is connected with Dynamic essays, LObjects, Lesserphic, Text Field Spec for LObjects, Franc, ect. is completely covered by VPRI team and their domain of exploration, development and deployment. So, the idea is not in getting these great yet unfinished projects and integrating them in Squeak just right now as is. In reality we could just looking on what is happened there from the side, by reading the reports, articles and self exploring the code. Someone could consider VPRI projects as the main development's vector for the future of Squeak related activities, I am stating on that point of view too. That is why, "not to be left behind the scene" we need to develop Squeak by using the technologies, hidden behind all these projects. And furthermore we are luckily! OMeta and Worlds are quit ready to use since 2010.
Although
there are many of working OMeta's examples for Squeak (ForAll language, SpecParser, Nile), Worlds are also presented there and it is an
updatable
image.
Could you specify the links more precisely?
Yes, all links are accessible at VPRI wikihttp://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Another is Yoshiki's SqueakBootStrapper image with
BootStrapEncoder/parser and of course: OMeta/JS wiki. Now thinking, that we need to ask the VPRI team for official permission
on
using and experimenting with these stuff in Squeak, especially
concerning
to the image side parts of "Mochi" system. Bert, may be you could bring some clearance on this, please?
It's released under MIT, which means you don't need to ask specific permission (but note that I am only a contractor to VPRI, cannot speak
for
them).
This is a lot -- where you do think you would like to focus on?
First, making OMeta as the default preloaded package in Squeak. Then, review, redefine the parts in Squeak where patten matching and parsing is needed, reimplementing them using OMeta. Adopting existed programmer's tools for easily using of OMeta language, while working with source code (transcription, annotation, localisation, etc). Exploring, how "Undo" operation could be implemented in current Squeak using Worlds. And more..
Regards, Nikolay
--Hannes
"Nikolay" == Nikolay Suslov nsuslovi@gmail.com writes:
Nikolay> First, making OMeta as the default preloaded package in Nikolay> Squeak. Then, review, redefine the parts in Squeak where patten Nikolay> matching and parsing is needed, reimplementing them using Nikolay> OMeta. Adopting existed programmer's tools for easily using of Nikolay> OMeta language, while working with source code (transcription, Nikolay> annotation, localisation, etc). Exploring, how "Undo" operation Nikolay> could be implemented in current Squeak using Worlds. And more..
While I'm very impressed with OMeta across multiple platforms, I think putting it directly into Squeak as an always-handy parser might be a bit premature.
I'd like a fair comparison with the PEG stuff of XTreams before I would put my weight behind either proposal. I say that because I'm inclined to move Squeak towards Xtreams first, and if a PEG parser comes along for free with that, we're already further than we've been in the past. And the PEG Parser of XTreams doesn't require extraordinary browser support, as OMeta does.
There's also Lukas' PetitParser. I've used it, and it's nice too. One thing it has over (and under) OMeta is that it's plain old Smalltalk (so no additional tool support is required) but OTOH I think OMeta's grammars are more terse and nicer to read. Mostly the same tech though (PEGs.)
On Mar 30, 2011, at 11:26 AM, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
"Nikolay" == Nikolay Suslov nsuslovi@gmail.com writes:
Nikolay> First, making OMeta as the default preloaded package in Nikolay> Squeak. Then, review, redefine the parts in Squeak where patten Nikolay> matching and parsing is needed, reimplementing them using Nikolay> OMeta. Adopting existed programmer's tools for easily using of Nikolay> OMeta language, while working with source code (transcription, Nikolay> annotation, localisation, etc). Exploring, how "Undo" operation Nikolay> could be implemented in current Squeak using Worlds. And more..
While I'm very impressed with OMeta across multiple platforms, I think putting it directly into Squeak as an always-handy parser might be a bit premature.
I'd like a fair comparison with the PEG stuff of XTreams before I would put my weight behind either proposal. I say that because I'm inclined to move Squeak towards Xtreams first, and if a PEG parser comes along for free with that, we're already further than we've been in the past. And the PEG Parser of XTreams doesn't require extraordinary browser support, as OMeta does.
-- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
Michael Lucas-Smith presented XTreams last December at the UKSTUG meeting. If memory serves me correctly, his biggest complaint about OMeta was the mingling of semantic actions with the grammar.
I pointed out though that you can easily get around that by having your semantic actions indirected. http://www.angband.za.org/~frank/Pythia/ has a hopefully not too rubbish example of what I mean. It's written in OMeta 1, so don't expect it to work with OMeta 2!
frank
On 2011/03/30 20:14, Casey Ransberger wrote:
There's also Lukas' PetitParser. I've used it, and it's nice too. One thing it has over (and under) OMeta is that it's plain old Smalltalk (so no additional tool support is required) but OTOH I think OMeta's grammars are more terse and nicer to read. Mostly the same tech though (PEGs.)
On Mar 30, 2011, at 11:26 AM, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
> "Nikolay" == Nikolay Suslovnsuslovi@gmail.com writes:
Nikolay> First, making OMeta as the default preloaded package in Nikolay> Squeak. Then, review, redefine the parts in Squeak where patten Nikolay> matching and parsing is needed, reimplementing them using Nikolay> OMeta. Adopting existed programmer's tools for easily using of Nikolay> OMeta language, while working with source code (transcription, Nikolay> annotation, localisation, etc). Exploring, how "Undo" operation Nikolay> could be implemented in current Squeak using Worlds. And more..
While I'm very impressed with OMeta across multiple platforms, I think putting it directly into Squeak as an always-handy parser might be a bit premature.
I'd like a fair comparison with the PEG stuff of XTreams before I would put my weight behind either proposal. I say that because I'm inclined to move Squeak towards Xtreams first, and if a PEG parser comes along for free with that, we're already further than we've been in the past. And the PEG Parser of XTreams doesn't require extraordinary browser support, as OMeta does.
-- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Randal L. Schwartz merlyn@stonehenge.comwrote:
"Nikolay" == Nikolay Suslov nsuslovi@gmail.com writes:
Nikolay> First, making OMeta as the default preloaded package in Nikolay> Squeak. Then, review, redefine the parts in Squeak where patten Nikolay> matching and parsing is needed, reimplementing them using Nikolay> OMeta. Adopting existed programmer's tools for easily using of Nikolay> OMeta language, while working with source code (transcription, Nikolay> annotation, localisation, etc). Exploring, how "Undo" operation Nikolay> could be implemented in current Squeak using Worlds. And more..
While I'm very impressed with OMeta across multiple platforms, I think putting it directly into Squeak as an always-handy parser might be a bit premature.
I'd like a fair comparison with the PEG stuff of XTreams before I would put my weight behind either proposal. I say that because I'm inclined to move Squeak towards Xtreams first, and if a PEG parser comes along for free with that, we're already further than we've been in the past. And the PEG Parser of XTreams doesn't require extraordinary browser support, as OMeta does.
From conceptual and practical point of view,
OMeta - is not yet another "system tool" written for Squeak or another fork, in contrary to XTreams (a generalized stream/iterator framework written in Smalltalk) burned in Pharo. OMeta is a language which allows to simplify an existed tools in it's hosted language (Squeak, Pharo, JavaScript, etc) where it is implemented, while not porting, learning and using another ones, like XTreams. So, redefined tools with OMeta could become really portable and mobile, ready for using in any other fork, even in another language, like JavaScript.
Regards, Nikolay
-- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
OMeta - is not yet another "system tool" written for Squeak or another fork, in contrary to XTreams (a generalized stream/iterator framework written in Smalltalk) burned in Pharo. OMeta is a language which allows to simplify an
I don't know what you mean by "burned in Pharo", but XTreams was originally written in VisualWorks and then ported to Squeak/Pharo.
existed tools in it's hosted language (Squeak, Pharo, JavaScript, etc) where it is implemented, while not porting, learning and using another ones, like XTreams. So, redefined tools with OMeta could become really portable and mobile, ready for using in any other fork, even in another language, like JavaScript.
Well, this is one of my concerns with OMeta (besides the really bad performance compared to other PEG implementations). It's a language which is not smalltalk. IMHO PetitParser and MEPS are better from this POV, because they're DSLs inside smalltalk. This means that existing tools can be used with them out of the box.
Levente
Regards, Nikolay
-- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
On 31.03.2011, at 14:16, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
OMeta - is not yet another "system tool" written for Squeak or another fork, in contrary to XTreams (a generalized stream/iterator framework written in Smalltalk) burned in Pharo. OMeta is a language which allows to simplify an
I don't know what you mean by "burned in Pharo", but XTreams was originally written in VisualWorks and then ported to Squeak/Pharo.
existed tools in it's hosted language (Squeak, Pharo, JavaScript, etc) where it is implemented, while not porting, learning and using another ones, like XTreams. So, redefined tools with OMeta could become really portable and mobile, ready for using in any other fork, even in another language, like JavaScript.
Well, this is one of my concerns with OMeta (besides the really bad performance compared to other PEG implementations). It's a language which is not smalltalk. IMHO PetitParser and MEPS are better from this POV, because they're DSLs inside smalltalk. This means that existing tools can be used with them out of the box.
Have to agree, PetitParser is a much better fit for use with Smalltalk. In contrast, OMeta was made as a language of its own that works with many different host languages.
- Bert -
Levente,
On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Levente Uzonyi leves@elte.hu wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
OMeta - is not yet another "system tool" written for Squeak or another
fork, in contrary to XTreams (a generalized stream/iterator framework written in Smalltalk) burned in Pharo. OMeta is a language which allows to simplify an
I don't know what you mean by "burned in Pharo", but XTreams was originally written in VisualWorks and then ported to Squeak/Pharo.
Sorry, that's Gmail's check spelling fault and my too. I meant: XTreams was borned in Pharo (not burned :)
Regards, Nikolay
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Nikolay Suslov