Hello,
I have been using the squeak-dev and squeak-web images from Damien Cassou the past few days and find them to be quite pleasant. However, I have a couple of concerns/questions/comments.
1) Is there a preference to disable CornerGrips on SystemWindows? I would rather resize with any frame as the handle. There is a preference to disable grips on panes, but not on the window as a whole.
2) Is there a preference to disable auto-completion of strings, comments, blocks, etc? I would rather not have it type a closing " for me when I type my initial ". Already there is a keyboard command in Smalltalk for me to put these in there if I want to. But I don't. :)
3) I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get these back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
Thanks for your good work and a good image.
- Tim
On 3/30/07, trilobyte@hoe.nu trilobyte@hoe.nu wrote:
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get these
back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
I like them too, but I am afraid they are gone. We should use := instead of underscore. That is the ANSI standard for Smalltalk. Most of the other Smalltalks use only := for assignment.
-Ralph
On 3/30/07, trilobyte@hoe.nu trilobyte@hoe.nu wrote:
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get
these back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
I like them too, but I am afraid they are gone. We should use := instead of underscore. That is the ANSI standard for Smalltalk. Most of the other Smalltalks use only := for assignment.
Ah well; good thing I learned Pascal in high school. The ol' fingers still have some memory for typing := after :=. Still, I resist having to change just because some other Smalltalks aren't cool enough to avoid international standards and use their own character set ;)
Thanks, Tim
El 3/30/07 11:45 AM, "Tim Johnson" trilobyte@hoe.nu escribió:
Ah well; good thing I learned Pascal in high school. The ol' fingers still have some memory for typing := after :=. Still, I resist having to change just because some other Smalltalks aren't cool enough to avoid international standards and use their own character set ;)
I always said have Pascal in my Rom brain. But also we could have <- in Squeak, is two chars and unique and for standards read http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5914
Edgar
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:16:16 -0800, Edgar J. De Cleene edgardec2001@yahoo.com.ar wrote:
But also we could have <- in Squeak, is two chars and unique and for standards read http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5914
From Snopes (who has this labeled as FALSE):
Origins: This is one of those items that -- although wrong in many of its details — isn't exactly false in an overall sense and is perhaps more fairly labelled as "True, but for trivial and unremarkable reasons." Marvelling that the width of modern roadways is similar to the width of ancient roadways is sort of like getting excited over a notion such as "modern clothes sizes are based upon standards developed by medieval tailors." Well, duh. Despite obvious differences in style, clothing in the Middle Ages served the same purpose as clothing today (i.e., to cover, protect, and ornament the human body), and modern human beings are very close in size to medieval human beings (we are, on average, a little bit taller and heavier than we were several centuries ago, but not much), so we naturally expect ancient and modern clothing to be similar in size.
So, rather than going into excruciating detail about the history of transportation, we'll simply note that roads are built (or worn) to accommodate whatever uses them, and that for many centuries prior to the advent of railroads, what travelled on roads were mostly wheeled conveyances, pulled by beasts of burden (primarily horses), carrying passengers and goods.
El 3/30/07 4:25 PM, "Blake" blake@kingdomrpg.com escribió:
But also we could have <- in Squeak, is two chars and unique and for standards read http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5914
From Snopes (who has this labeled as FALSE):
My point is what standards could change ...
From you link Although we humans can be remarkably inventive, we are also often resistant to change and can be persistently stubborn (or perhaps practical) in trying to apply old solutions to new conditions.
Maybe false (or wrong) things don't get a smile from you ? :=)
Edgar
From you link Although we humans can be remarkably inventive, we are also often resistant to change and can be persistently stubborn (or perhaps practical) in trying to apply old solutions to new conditions.
Maybe false (or wrong) things don't get a smile from you ? :=)
Got a smile from me, and hopefully the coworkers I sent it to... :D
Thanks, Tim
I was under the impression that unicode included a left arrow, that we handle unicode and that therefore we ought to be able to use a proper assign arrow without overriding the underscore?
:= is a barbaric bit of nonsense intended to allow use of inferior character sets and stupid keyboards.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim It is easier to change the specification to fit the program than vice versa.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:16:12 -0800, Edgar J. De Cleene edgardec2001@yahoo.com.ar wrote:
Maybe false (or wrong) things don't get a smile from you ? :=)
No, it always does. I just like it better as an allegory. <s>
- Is there a preference to disable CornerGrips on SystemWindows? I
would rather resize with any frame as the handle. There is a preference to disable grips on panes, but not on the window as a whole.
That's part of the new UI design of 3.9.
- Is there a preference to disable auto-completion of strings, comments,
blocks, etc? I would rather not have it type a closing " for me when I type my initial ". Already there is a keyboard command in Smalltalk for me to put these in there if I want to. But I don't. :)
There is a setting called ecompletionSmartCharacters in the preference browser.
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get these
back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
The left arrow is dead. The syntax highlighter has some preferences for that, but I don't know what they exactly do: syntaxHighlightingAsYouTypeAnsiAssignement and syntaxHighlightingAsYouTypeLeftArrowAssignement.
Lukas
- Is there a preference to disable CornerGrips on SystemWindows? I
would rather resize with any frame as the handle. There is a preference to disable grips on panes, but not on the window as a whole.
That's part of the new UI design of 3.9.
Ah, okay. I must live with it then. :)
- Is there a preference to disable auto-completion of strings,
comments, blocks, etc? I would rather not have it type a closing " for me when I type my initial ". Already there is a keyboard command in Smalltalk for me to put these in there if I want to. But I don't. :)
There is a setting called ecompletionSmartCharacters in the preference browser.
Excellent! I can't believe I missed that. Thank you.
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get
these back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
The left arrow is dead. The syntax highlighter has some preferences for that, but I don't know what they exactly do: syntaxHighlightingAsYouTypeAnsiAssignement and syntaxHighlightingAsYouTypeLeftArrowAssignement.
I believe these convert one assignment style to the other as they are typed/entered.
Thanks, Tim
From: trilobyte@hoe.nu Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Hello,
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get these
back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
I thought the underscore was deprecated and we were supposed to use :=. No?
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J J wrote:
From: trilobyte@hoe.nu Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Hello,
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I get
these back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
I thought the underscore was deprecated and we were supposed to use :=. No?
Well I say it aint so, but I may be a voice crying in the wilderness.
Keith
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:29 PM, Keith Hodges wrote:
J J wrote:
From: trilobyte@hoe.nu Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Hello,
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I
get these back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
I thought the underscore was deprecated and we were supposed to use :=. No?
Well I say it aint so, but I may be a voice crying in the wilderness.
Fear not, you are not alone. I *like* my leftarrow. I even managed to get the original Acorn machines to have a key for it.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "Mr. Worf, scan that ship." "Aye aye, Captain... 300 DPI?
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty-printer?
Josh
On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:36 PM, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:29 PM, Keith Hodges wrote:
J J wrote:
From: trilobyte@hoe.nu Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Hello,
- I want my left-arrows back :) No more underscores! Can I
get these back? Or are they gone for good with 3.9? Please, say it ain't so.
I thought the underscore was deprecated and we were supposed to use :=. No?
Well I say it aint so, but I may be a voice crying in the wilderness.
Fear not, you are not alone. I *like* my leftarrow. I even managed to get the original Acorn machines to have a key for it.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "Mr. Worf, scan that ship." "Aye aye, Captain... 300 DPI?
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Put a lens in each ear and you've got a telescope.
On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:59 PM, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty-printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow?
Nothing to do with a *proper* leftarrow, but as long as people keep evaluating 'Preferences enable: #allowU&%$#(@& $#Assignment' (intentionally obfuscated so that I don' t inadvertently tell someone about it ;-), we'll have neither our underscore pseudo-punctuation nor our proper leftarrow.
BTW, I'm not a huge fan of underscore psuedo-punctuation either, but it beats having to mentally translate between it and the best- approximation-that-Squeak-can-muster.
A proper uparrow would be icing on the cake.
Josh
We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Put a lens in each ear and you've got a telescope.
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
Philippe Marschall wrote:
2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer:
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
None of these are acceptable for something that has to be typed very often. I would suggest alt-arrow or even just shift-arrow as a way of getting all four proper Unicode arrow characters into our code. Having recently played with several old computers (like the TRS-80) on FPGA development boards I found it interesting that they all had arrows in their character sets and a few even made it easy to type them.
About the parallel thread of the pointlessness of following old standards, I will repeat the history (there are always new people here who haven't heard it yet) of how we got into this mess in the first place. The preliminary version of ASCII did have arrow characters and so early implementors like DEC and Xerox put them in their keyboards and printers. When the final version came out, the up arrow had been replaced by the carret and the left arrow by the underscore. But too many devices were already in use to update them all so the following years (up to the late 1980s, really) saw an awful mix. When the Smalltalk people decided to abandon their own character sets (and later floating point formats) for industry standards they adopted ASCII as it was used in all Xerox equipment. So it was equivalent to sticking to qwerty when parts of the world were moving to something else. Far from changing an accepted practice, Smalltalk-80's fault was one of doing things as they had been always done.
-- Jecel
So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :)
From: "Philippe Marschall" philippe.marschall@gmail.com Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list"squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:32:55 +0200
2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
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On 6-Apr-07, at 7:25 AM, J J wrote:
So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :)
Let's not be daft about this folks.
Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- ? I don't really care at this stage. Profit.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Fractured Idiom:- L'ETAT, C'EST MOO - I'm boss around here
I wasn't trying to be daft. Someone asked how these characters would be input, Phillip sent a link to how to the long way of doing Unicodes and I was checking if he is serious. I do of course think it is time to expand the character sets, but I'm curious how it would be done. I know there are keyboards where you can set every key how you want it (LCD displays on the keys), but they are a bit pricey. Your explanation is about what I would expect.
From: tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:44:43 -0700
On 6-Apr-07, at 7:25 AM, J J wrote:
So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :)
Let's not be daft about this folks.
Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- ? I don't really care at this stage. Profit.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Fractured Idiom:- L'ETAT, C'EST MOO - I'm boss around here
_________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=...
On 6-Apr-07, at 8:49 AM, J J wrote:
I wasn't trying to be daft.
No personal observation was meant - which is why I used the 'folks' label. You have to reply to some message or other and you got to be the lucky winner :-)
As you say, barring the totally reconfigurable keyboard a hotkey is about what you wold expect.
Now, who has some time to implement it?
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oxymorons: Clearly misunderstood
tim Rowledge wrote:
Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt-? I don't really care at this stage. Profit.
+ 1
Stef
tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org writes:
Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- ? I don't really care at this stage. Profit.
This approach will work. However, we could instead not do all that, and use pure ASCII. ASCII is simple, sufficient, and breathtakingly good at interop.
Lex
On Apr 7, 2007, at 15:45 , Lex Spoon wrote:
tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org writes:
Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- ? I don't really care at this stage. Profit.
This approach will work. However, we could instead not do all that, and use pure ASCII. ASCII is simple, sufficient, and breathtakingly good at interop.
The American SCII also breathtakingly sucks at expressiveness, even for many Americans. If you find its expressiveness sufficient, good for you. In most parts of the world it is not.
Typewriters with their limited character set fortunately were only a small interlude in the history of typography. I'm glad in Smalltalk we at least use proportional fonts. Arbitrary punctuation like := really disturbs in reading IMHO. I actually hope we're moving towards higher typographical standards (we at least should be able to do what Fortress does for example) and not falling back into the stone age of computing.
- Bert -
I think I usually agree with Lex, but this time I must say I do not. C was breathtakingly good at interop as well, but at some point we saw that it was holding us back and moved on. I feel it's the same with the ASCII set.
I haven't seen much pain in Smalltalk because of being tied to ASCII (though that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that we are good at working around it). But one place that is showing it in a big way is Haskell [1].
I not sure what to do here, but there must be something. Maybe do like laptops already do and have a "function" key that causes normal keys to do an alternative function (normally written in blue), e.g. holding down F2 and the L key could make a lambda symbol. When a user presses the "function" key, we could have a little keyboard pop up to show what the symbols are since they wont be written on the keyboard.
[1] In Haskell one becomes aware of the limitations of using ASCII right away. The compose symbol (normally a circle) is the period. They decided to use the \ symbol for lambdas (!!!) since that was the closest graphic available.
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 18:29:25 +0200
On Apr 7, 2007, at 15:45 , Lex Spoon wrote:
tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org writes:
Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- ? I don't really care at this stage. Profit.
This approach will work. However, we could instead not do all that, and use pure ASCII. ASCII is simple, sufficient, and breathtakingly good at interop.
The American SCII also breathtakingly sucks at expressiveness, even for many Americans. If you find its expressiveness sufficient, good for you. In most parts of the world it is not.
Typewriters with their limited character set fortunately were only a small interlude in the history of typography. I'm glad in Smalltalk we at least use proportional fonts. Arbitrary punctuation like := really disturbs in reading IMHO. I actually hope we're moving towards higher typographical standards (we at least should be able to do what Fortress does for example) and not falling back into the stone age of computing.
- Bert -
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J J wrote:
[1] In Haskell one becomes aware of the limitations of using ASCII right away. The compose symbol (normally a circle) is the period. They decided to use the \ symbol for lambdas (!!!) since that was the closest graphic available.
For what it's worth, I think both of those choices work well for haskell, and in a modern emacs and with a lucky font choice :), (setq haskell-font-lock-symbols 'unicode) makes them look great!
Well, they may be workable. But it is 2007, sooner or later one should be able to write mathematical code in mathematical symbols. How much longer is paper going to be much more flexible then computers for writing things down? :)
From: Simon Michael simon@joyful.com Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:05:49 -0700
J J wrote:
[1] In Haskell one becomes aware of the limitations of using ASCII right away. The compose symbol (normally a circle) is the period. They decided to use the \ symbol for lambdas (!!!) since that was the closest graphic available.
For what it's worth, I think both of those choices work well for haskell, and in a modern emacs and with a lucky font choice :), (setq haskell-font-lock-symbols 'unicode) makes them look great!
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Fortress is using unicode, so that it can look more like mathematics. IIRC, they have an ASCII encoding that can be used for input or portability, but the language is designed to be typed with multiple fonts and wide range of glyphs.
On 9 Apr 2007, at 2:49, J J wrote:
But it is 2007, sooner or later one should be able to write mathematical code in mathematical symbols. How much longer is paper going to be much more flexible then computers for writing things down? :)
Andrew P. Black Department of Computer Science Portland State University +1 503 725 2411
On 7-Apr-07, at 9:29 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: [snip]
The American SCII also breathtakingly sucks at expressiveness, even for many Americans. If you find its expressiveness sufficient, good for you. In most parts of the world it is not.
Hear-hear. How am I supposed to put a diaresis on a 'y' to indicate it is to be pronounced as a separate vowel?
There's lot of important lexical(sic) symbols that Lex's wish for 'pure ASCII' would prevent us using. Smalltalk-return and Smalltalk- assign are just two that happen to concern us here and now.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oxymorons: Sweet sorrow
tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org writes:
On 7-Apr-07, at 9:29 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
The American SCII also breathtakingly sucks at expressiveness, even for many Americans. If you find its expressiveness sufficient, good for you. In most parts of the world it is not.
Hear-hear. How am I supposed to put a diaresis on a 'y' to indicate it is to be pronounced as a separate vowel?
There's lot of important lexical(sic) symbols that Lex's wish for 'pure ASCII' would prevent us using. Smalltalk-return and Smalltalk- assign are just two that happen to concern us here and now.
I get the argument for going to Unicode, though that is not without its problems. What bugs me is redefining _ and ^ in non-standard ways. It's awkward and obscure.
Lex
From: Lex Spoon lex@lexspoon.org Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: 07 Apr 2007 16:13:43 -0400
I get the argument for going to Unicode, though that is not without its problems. What bugs me is redefining _ and ^ in non-standard ways. It's awkward and obscure.
Who wants to do that? I think _ should mean _. If we want an arrow for assignment and there is one in Unicode then we should provide a way to input it and use that. And we could provide a preference to use only ASCII for people who want to, but the _ assignments should go away imho.
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On 9-Apr-07, at 2:51 AM, J J wrote:
From: Lex Spoon lex@lexspoon.org Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: 07 Apr 2007 16:13:43 -0400
I get the argument for going to Unicode, though that is not without its problems. What bugs me is redefining _ and ^ in non-standard ways. It's awkward and obscure.
Who wants to do that? I think _ should mean _. If we want an arrow for assignment and there is one in Unicode then we should provide a way to input it and use that. And we could provide a preference to use only ASCII for people who want to, but the _ assignments should go away imho.
Exactly; I certainly didn't intend to suggest "redefining _ and ^ in non-standard ways" and I don't think I saw anyone else do so. We have the option of using proper characters that are outside the narrow scope of mere ASCII to improve our system. I posit the we should so do.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Ought to have a warning label on his forehead.
tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org writes:
Exactly; I certainly didn't intend to suggest "redefining _ and ^ in non-standard ways" and I don't think I saw anyone else do so. We have the option of using proper characters that are outside the narrow scope of mere ASCII to improve our system. I posit the we should so do.
As you know, this is the status quo in Squeak. _ and ^ are left-arrow and up-arrow in many Squeak fonts. Changing these back to the normal characters is IMHO an improvement for Squeak interop, and an improvement in general.
You did propose a collection of rewrites that should happen as code comes into and out of the system. This is part of what I meant by treating characters in non-standard ways. Whether or not we switch to Unicode, translating on file-in/file-out is problematic. Just consider cut and paste with Squeak workspaces. Sometimes workspaces hold code and sometimes they do not, so you cannot know whether or not to apply the rewrite. It is far nicer if you can treat the code as normal text, and thus copy/paste it as is.
Even if we do switch to Unicode, there is a case for sticking with := and ^ instead of using Unicode arrow characters. := and ^ are easy to type, and they will work fine in every tool that processes text. You don't have to get into rewrites and pretty printers; you can just use the text as it is. That degree of interop is powerful for our users.
Lex
Hi J J,
what do you complain about, just Ctrl+Shift is nothing compared to NetBeans, which demands 150% of that from a single hand with Ctrl+Shift+NumPad (NumPad is the "Fn" key on a notebook's keypad) for "advanced" functions ;-)
/Klaus
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 16:25:08 +0200, J J wrote:
So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :)
From: "Philippe Marschall" philippe.marschall@gmail.com Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list"squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:32:55 +0200
2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
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Hello,
I found that the wikipedia article (and the section on the input methods) Philippe quoted was pretty badly written. (And biased and missed to mention the other real problems of Unicode.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods
The majority of wide character users in the world are using more intelligent input methods that knows about the context and figure out the most likely result as well as the lists other possibilities for the user. And, the user choose it. And, like some input methods in Emacs for latin languages, there is nothing wrong to use sequence to "input" one "character".
Anyway, what we could do are:
1) A two-key sequence with $_ and $ (space) gets converted to u2191 *and* a space. A $_ not followed by space will be $_. Or, 2) The frontend of paragraph editor converts two key sequence with $< and $- to u2191. (If you would like to input a string '<-', you would type $<, $ , $- and then remove the space.) Or, 3) $\ could be a beginning of a special sequence. That character, followed by 'leftarrow' would be converted to u2191.
I like the first one most, btw. One could add a feature that show the list of possible results in 1) or 2) and let the user choose.
-- Yoshiki
At Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:25:08 +0000, J J wrote:
So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :)
From: "Philippe Marschall" philippe.marschall@gmail.com Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list"squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:32:55 +0200
2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3
Hello,
I wrote:
- A two-key sequence with $_ and $ (space) gets converted to u2191 *and* a space. A $_ not followed by space will be $_. Or,
For this one (and other one), what would happen would be:
When the user types $_, it gets shown at the cursor point in the editor, but is shown in red, or with a box (or with underline... but it won't work in this particular character). This visual feedback reminds the user that it is not "settled" yet. Then, when the user enters the next character, what the underscore character should be is decided based on whether it is a space or not, and the two characters are "settled" and inserted into the editor...
-- Yoshiki
Hi, I have hacked a version of Shout together that supports Unicode arrows. You can get the mcz from here...
http://www.zen61439.zen.co.uk/ShoutUnicodeArrows/
This folder contains...
the hacked Shout mcz,
some screenshots - showing how it looks with FreeSans.ttf installed as TTCFontSet and how it looks with Arial using FreeType
a suitable unicode ttf font (FreeSans.ttf)
an install script, ShoutUnicodeArrows.st , that :- installs the mcz, installs FreeSans as a TextStyle, and sets it as the code font, Sets the correct Shout preferences
To install, copy the folder contents to your default directory, and filein in the .st file. then open a normal Browser. (I used a Squeak-dev-95-2 image during development).
The key sequences / hotkeys are :
unicode Leftwards Arrow is any one of :-
cmd-shift-<cursorLeft> <- <cursorLeft> _<space>
unicode Upwards Arrow is any one of :-
cmd-shift-<cursorUp> ^<space>
The only ones I personally like are cmd-shift-<cursorLeft> & cmd-shift-<cursorUp>
Cheers, Andy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yoshiki Ohshima" yoshiki@squeakland.org To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
Hello,
I wrote:
- A two-key sequence with $_ and $ (space) gets converted to u2191 *and* a space. A $_ not followed by space will be $_. Or,
For this one (and other one), what would happen would be:
When the user types $_, it gets shown at the cursor point in the editor, but is shown in red, or with a box (or with underline... but it won't work in this particular character). This visual feedback reminds the user that it is not "settled" yet. Then, when the user enters the next character, what the underscore character should be is decided based on whether it is a space or not, and the two characters are "settled" and inserted into the editor...
-- Yoshiki
Oops, forgot to mention a couple of other hotkeys...
unicode Leftwards Arrow is any one of :- cmd-shift-<cursorLeft> <- \<cursorLeft> _<space>
and also cmd-<space>
unicode Upwards Arrow is any one of :- cmd-shift-<cursorUp> ^<space>
and also cmd-/
I have hacked a version of Shout together that supports Unicode arrows. You can get the mcz from here...
This doesn't quite work for me: I get an error that TextMorphForShoutEditor does not understand #caret.
Also, is it possible to suppress the rendering of tab characters in the FreeSans font?
Regards, Martin
Hi,
This doesn't quite work for me: I get an error that TextMorphForShoutEditor does not understand #caret.
ok. the caret method is added by eCompletion. Try in a Squeak-dev-95-2 image, or load eCompletion.
Also, is it possible to suppress the rendering of tab characters in the FreeSans font?
I don't know the cause of the problem, or the solution. It may be a general problem with TTCFontSet's, WideString's , or who knows what. I don't think it is the FreeSans font; I get the same problem with DejaVuSans.
Regards, Martin
On Apr 7, 2007, at 16:22 , Andrew Tween wrote:
Also, is it possible to suppress the rendering of tab characters in the FreeSans font?
I don't know the cause of the problem, or the solution. It may be a general problem with TTCFontSet's, WideString's , or who knows what. I don't think it is the FreeSans font; I get the same problem with DejaVuSans.
The freetype importer needs to map those characters to a blank glyph.
- Bert -
Hi Bert,
The freetype importer needs to map those characters to a blank glyph.
freetype? I think you meant truetype? In which case - yes, but how?
Lots of problems with WideString/Unicode/MultiTTCFont will be exposed if people start using my hacked Shout. Which reinforces the (very valid) observation you made earlier about excercising WideString code paths.
Cheers, Andy
On Apr 7, 2007, at 21:12 , Andrew Tween wrote:
Hi Bert,
The freetype importer needs to map those characters to a blank glyph.
freetype? I think you meant truetype?
Sorry, yes, that's what I meant.
In which case - yes, but how?
IIRC truetype requires glyph number 0 to be a zero-width blank glyph. So if you assign that in the character-to-glyph map it will not be rendered.
I seem to recall there even was a method for doing this remapping, but I haven't looked for it.
- Bert -
Hi, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Freudenberg" bert@freudenbergs.de To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:34 PM Subject: Re: Unicode Arrows in Shout ( was Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-webimagev95-2)
On Apr 7, 2007, at 21:12 , Andrew Tween wrote:
Hi Bert,
The freetype importer needs to map those characters to a blank glyph.
freetype? I think you meant truetype?
Sorry, yes, that's what I meant.
In which case - yes, but how?
IIRC truetype requires glyph number 0 to be a zero-width blank glyph. So if you assign that in the character-to-glyph map it will not be rendered.
I think glyph 0 is the "unknown" glyph - usually a rectangle. glyph 1 is the "null" glyph.
Having said that, the TTCFontReader is making its own blank glyph for separators.
Which is ok. But...
TTCFontReader>>processCharMap: creates two encodings; the first has 256 entries, the second 65536. In the first encoding, it sets the entry for each separator character to the blank glyph. But, in the second encoding, it doesn't.
Modifying it so that separators are set to a blank glyph in both encodings fixes the problem. Fileout is attached.
Cheers, Andy
Modifying it so that separators are set to a blank glyph in both encodings fixes the problem. Fileout is attached.
Thanks, works fine. Not sure whose fault it is, but when browsing the senders of setDemoFonts, looking at Preferences class>>fontConfigurationMenu, I get a ByteArray>>errorSubscriptBounds:, index=8593. The byte array in question is CaseInsensitiveMatchOrder.
The call originates from TextMorphForShoutEditor>>againOnce:, where it says
where ← paragraph text findString: FindText startingAt: self stopIndex caseSensitive: ((ChangeText ~~ FindText) or: [Preferences caseSensitiveFinds]).
The actual problem seems to be that CaseInsensitiveMatchOrder is only 256 bytes in size.
Regards, Martin
On Apr 8, 2007, at 10:49 , Martin v. Löwis wrote:
Modifying it so that separators are set to a blank glyph in both encodings fixes the problem. Fileout is attached.
Thanks, works fine. Not sure whose fault it is, but when browsing the senders of setDemoFonts, looking at Preferences class>>fontConfigurationMenu, I get a ByteArray>>errorSubscriptBounds:, index=8593. The byte array in question is CaseInsensitiveMatchOrder.
The call originates from TextMorphForShoutEditor>>againOnce:, where it says
where ← paragraph text findString: FindText startingAt: self stopIndex caseSensitive: ((ChangeText ~~ FindText) or: [Preferences caseSensitiveFinds]).
The actual problem seems to be that CaseInsensitiveMatchOrder is only 256 bytes in size.
Yep. Sounds like my suggestion to get the wide char paths more exercised is valid ;)
- Bert -
Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
On Apr 8, 2007, at 10:49 , Martin v. Löwis wrote:
Modifying it so that separators are set to a blank glyph in both encodings fixes the problem. Fileout is attached.
Thanks, works fine. Not sure whose fault it is, but when browsing the senders of setDemoFonts, looking at Preferences class>>fontConfigurationMenu, I get a ByteArray>>errorSubscriptBounds:, index=8593. The byte array in question is CaseInsensitiveMatchOrder.
The call originates from TextMorphForShoutEditor>>againOnce:, where it says
where ← paragraph text findString: FindText startingAt: self stopIndex caseSensitive: ((ChangeText ~~ FindText) or: [Preferences caseSensitiveFinds]).
The actual problem seems to be that CaseInsensitiveMatchOrder is only 256 bytes in size.
Yep. Sounds like my suggestion to get the wide char paths more exercised is valid ;)
- Bert -
One way to correct bugs indeed is to release the unicode arrow change, let bugs express themselves randomly and correct them as they appear. Because this kind of bug is so central, harvesting should come fast.
The longer way is to first write tests foreach method (preferably tests with wide character in WideString, not just asciiString asWideString).
Former solution will let uncorrected bugs present and we then should be prepared to big traffic dedicated to complaints and angry mails in the lists from user loosing their changes.
But don't forget to use Mantis, you certainly experienced one of these http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6367 http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6366 http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=5331 http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=3574
Some corrections are underway in 3.10. But not all known bugs are corrected yet. And quite sure we can find more problems because a lot of code were optimized for single byte string and is abusively inherited by WideString.
Quite sure some bugs are also encountered and maybe cured in other forks (Squeakland, Sophie, OLPC?). That'a a weak point of forks.
We also have to rewrite some plugins or be prepared to some loss of efficiency.
That said, I would encourage going unicode. And Smalltalk is a framework in which we can do this well and easily. Try to program such a shift in C++ for example... Problems will appear when interfacing outside world, but with clever conversions and wrappers we can deal.
Nicolas
But don't forget to use Mantis, you certainly experienced one of these http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=3574
Indeed, this is the one I found. The other one (cut-n-paste does not work) apparently hasn't been reported.
And Smalltalk is a framework in which we can do this well and easily. Try to program such a shift in C++ for example...
Well, the Win32 API (pure C) handles Unicode just fine for more than 10 years, now. Many applications have been ported during that time, although you still find applications that break when confronted with characters outside the current locale.
Many C++ APIs have been moved to Unicode also, e.g. the Mozilla XPCOM infrastructure started out in single-byte mode, but is now Unicode throughout.
This is a case where static typing helps: if you change the APIs (which is essentially what has been done in both cases), you will get a compiler error (so people have to change a lot of code), but once you are through with these changes, there will be fewer surprises at run-time.
Regards, Martin
As another follow-up: Cut-n-paste of source text does not work anymore, on Linux. The arrows are stripped when pasting (both between two Squeak windows, and when copying from Squeak to, say, this IceDove window I'm typing the mail into (whereas copying the arrow from gucharmap works fine).
Regards, Martin
Hi, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin v. Löwis" martin@v.loewis.de To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Unicode Arrows in Shout ( wasRe: Squeak-dev/Squeak-webimagev95-2)
As another follow-up: Cut-n-paste of source text does not work anymore, on Linux. The arrows are stripped when pasting (both between two Squeak windows, and when copying from Squeak to, say, this IceDove window I'm typing the mail into (whereas copying the arrow from gucharmap works fine).
I get the same problem on Windows. Interestingly, cut-paste of a string containing only up-arrows and left-arrows works ok. But not with a longer string containing both arrows and ascii chars.
Cheers, Andy
On 4/4/07, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com wrote:
How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands culture.
Does the OLPC have left arrow and up arrow keys on its keyboard(s)?
Otherwise I'm sure you could do wonders to your keyboard with some solvent or sandpaper and a permanent marker!
Michael.
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constant("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty-printer?
My point is this. I think that the parser can support both underscores in selectors and underscore as assignment. When displaying I would expect a nice unicode left arrow to be used
If the parser is adjusted to enable both, the only issue is that underscores used in assignment must have some whitespace around them to remove any ambiguity. If you accidentally forget the whitespace the compiler will show you where it got confused, or where a selector does not exist, and you will have to edit the code, just like missing out a bracket, a period, or misspelling a selector.
I figured that I would try it one day, and I fully expect it to be a non issue, however I may be wrong and this wouldn't be the first time if I was, I just figured it would be worth a try.
best regards
Keith
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that
On Apr 4, 2007, at 13:15 , Keith Hodges wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constant ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty-printer?
My point is this. I think that the parser can support both underscores in selectors and underscore as assignment. When displaying I would expect a nice unicode left arrow to be used
I do not want underscore as assignment. I want arrows.
Using the proper unicode chars for assignment and return has the additional advantage that the WideString code paths will be exercised even by those people never using accented or otherwise "foreign" characters. You know who you are ;)
- Bert -
On Apr 4, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Using the proper unicode chars for assignment and return has the additional advantage that the WideString code paths will be exercised even by those people never using accented or otherwise "foreign" characters. You know who you are ;)
Yes, so later when those interesting unicode values are everywhere why MC is exercised more, versus finding gems in widestring string parsing logic when someone casually sticks a interesting unicode value in a method comment and then loading your MC package doesn't quite happen.
-- ======================================================================== === John M. McIntosh johnmci@smalltalkconsulting.com Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ======================================================================== ===
I'm a bit nervous myself about people from other languages contributing code that uses underscores all over the place.
From: tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org To: The general-purpose Squeak developers listsqueak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:59:27 -0700
On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote:
I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants ("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer?
Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies.
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- Put a lens in each ear and you've got a telescope.
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