Hello
Bert started the thread 'a little press coverage'. Actually the coverage is pretty good I think. http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-April/149615.htm...
Then Ian pointed out that we need a good screen shot and referred to an example on his blog. http://mecenia.blogspot.com/2010/04/history-of-squeak-in-pictures.html
It is just by now that I realized that there is a File List browser open on that screen shot showing a bitmap (BMP) file. What is displayed in the content windows are the codes, i.e. the picture is not displayed.
In other threads ** in the recent days Steve Wessels was working on a background chooser (posted to the inbox, then the issue of the Menu Registry came up). In fact the regular file list browser includes a button 'background'. It is however very difficult to choose a background with it if you do not see the picture.
** For example here http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-April/149538.htm... and http://squeak.preeminent.org/ (Steve's background chooser has more options like 'center' / 'Tile' and he is working on an updated version)
As Smalltalk is the grand-daddy of graphical user interfaces it strikes me with horror that after 30 years I do not see a picture if I browse through directories with the main file explorer tool. I think this needs a fix ASAP if we want to expose Squeak to a wider audience.
The quick fix for the time being is not to expose this deficiency in a screen shot. A image morph would be better. I see the necessity for a little maintenance release 4.1.1 which fixes this and similar problems.
This 4.1.1. could as well include the menu registry solution (either pragma or MenuSpec) and some other things e.g. 'Right-click on workspace stops functioning'
What do other's think about this issue? Would it be an option to go for a 4.1.1. release within a few days? Maybe next Saturday? These are not really difficult things to fix. More difficult things might be unearthed later and that would call for a 4.1.2 two weeks later.....
Kind regards Hannes
Hello Hannes,
You have understood what I am trying to do. Thank you! The specific screenshot you are referring to has been inspired by the background image discussion. It's much more obvious in picture that it doesn't make sense without image preview.
The best features are usually shown on screenshots when one tries to sell a product. The screenshots have however been prepared in the perspective to get help from the graphic community: it is more about having an accurate portray of the situation. I have also created each screenshot with similar elements for a visual comparison. Finally, I have tried to use versions that have seen major makeover for a better comparison over time (and it does show how slowly we evolve in term of visual).
Smalltalk has inspired modern computing and Squeak is probably the only multimedia oriented Smalltalk around (if we don't count forks anyway). A powerful programming environment with incredible multimedia capabilities but it feels flat. It is underwhelming.
It's good that you share links and references in (most) of your posts. We're all busy and it makes life easier to us. Thanks for this too.
Ian.
2010/4/26 Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com:
Hello
Bert started the thread 'a little press coverage'. Actually the coverage is pretty good I think. http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-April/149615.htm...
Then Ian pointed out that we need a good screen shot and referred to an example on his blog. http://mecenia.blogspot.com/2010/04/history-of-squeak-in-pictures.html
It is just by now that I realized that there is a File List browser open on that screen shot showing a bitmap (BMP) file. What is displayed in the content windows are the codes, i.e. the picture is not displayed.
In other threads ** in the recent days Steve Wessels was working on a background chooser (posted to the inbox, then the issue of the Menu Registry came up). In fact the regular file list browser includes a button 'background'. It is however very difficult to choose a background with it if you do not see the picture.
** For example here http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-April/149538.htm... and http://squeak.preeminent.org/ (Steve's background chooser has more options like 'center' / 'Tile' and he is working on an updated version)
As Smalltalk is the grand-daddy of graphical user interfaces it strikes me with horror that after 30 years I do not see a picture if I browse through directories with the main file explorer tool. I think this needs a fix ASAP if we want to expose Squeak to a wider audience.
The quick fix for the time being is not to expose this deficiency in a screen shot. A image morph would be better. I see the necessity for a little maintenance release 4.1.1 which fixes this and similar problems.
This 4.1.1. could as well include the menu registry solution (either pragma or MenuSpec) and some other things e.g. 'Right-click on workspace stops functioning'
What do other's think about this issue? Would it be an option to go for a 4.1.1. release within a few days? Maybe next Saturday? These are not really difficult things to fix. More difficult things might be unearthed later and that would call for a 4.1.2 two weeks later.....
Kind regards Hannes
Am 26.04.2010 21:36, schrieb Hannes Hirzel:
It is just by now that I realized that there is a File List browser open on that screen shot showing a bitmap (BMP) file. What is displayed in the content windows are the codes, i.e. the picture is not displayed.
I just tried to get the file list to display pictures, and realized that there has been some bit rot in Squeak's features to handle graphics embedded in text. AFAIK, there are two mechanisms: FormSetFont can display forms as glyphs, and TextAnchor can embed arbitrary morphs in text.
Neither works (at least not without quite some tweaking).
This is sad, as otherwise it would be fairly simple to read a graphic file and create a Text containing the graphic. I think that would be the simplest route.
Cheers, Hans-Martin
Martin,
Steve Wessels has three versions of DesktopBackgroundLoader in the inbox
http://source.squeak.org/inbox/DesktopBackgroundLoader-sbw.26.mcz http://source.squeak.org/inbox/DesktopBackgroundLoader-sbw.22.mcz http://source.squeak.org/inbox/DesktopBackgroundLoader-sbw.20.mcz
Version 22 subclasses model thus duplicating FileList functionality whereas version 26 subclasses FileList.
Bert Freudenberg was saying as a comment to 22 that the Background Loader duplicates FileList code and as such he prefers going for a subclass of FileList which Steve did with 26.
As we now find out is that FileList has not good code in it. Steve's version 22 is cleanly done and a good application of the new ToolBuilder.
It shows that displaying pictures in a explorer type dialog is indeed possible (see screen shot on Steve's website http://squeak.preeminent.org/images/previewer2.jpg)
So a solution (either along the lines of version 22 or version 26) is not out of reach...
We just have to make up our mind how we proceed.
--Hannes
On 4/26/10, Hans-Martin Mosner hmm@heeg.de wrote:
Am 26.04.2010 21:36, schrieb Hannes Hirzel:
It is just by now that I realized that there is a File List browser open on that screen shot showing a bitmap (BMP) file. What is displayed in the content windows are the codes, i.e. the picture is not displayed.
I just tried to get the file list to display pictures, and realized that there has been some bit rot in Squeak's features to handle graphics embedded in text. AFAIK, there are two mechanisms: FormSetFont can display forms as glyphs, and TextAnchor can embed arbitrary morphs in text.
Neither works (at least not without quite some tweaking).
This is sad, as otherwise it would be fairly simple to read a graphic file and create a Text containing the graphic. I think that would be the simplest route.
Cheers, Hans-Martin
On 27.04.2010, at 00:12, Hannes Hirzel wrote
As we now find out is that FileList has not good code in it.
You are misunderstanding what Hans-Martin meant. This is not about the code in FileList.
Squeak's "Text" class does support embedded graphics. This is way more powerful and elegant than cooking up a FileList replacement, or extending FileList with a special bitmap preview facility. All one would have to do is instead of showing a bitmap file's contents as text characters, have it show a text containing the form itself (plus possibly some more detailed text).
The problem is that that support seems to suffer from bit rot. I bet there are people on this list who wouldn't even know it exists. Former Squeak releases made use of this even in the Welcome text window (I remember a multi-colored 'S' in 'Squeak') - maybe we should resurrect that :)
In any case I agree with HMM that this would be the most elegant route.
- Bert -
On 4/26/10, Hans-Martin Mosner hmm@heeg.de wrote:
I just tried to get the file list to display pictures, and realized that there has been some bit rot in Squeak's features to handle graphics embedded in text. AFAIK, there are two mechanisms: FormSetFont can display forms as glyphs, and TextAnchor can embed arbitrary morphs in text.
Neither works (at least not without quite some tweaking).
This is sad, as otherwise it would be fairly simple to read a graphic file and create a Text containing the graphic. I think that would be the simplest route.
Cheers, Hans-Martin
Hello Bert
On 4/26/10, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On 27.04.2010, at 00:12, Hannes Hirzel wrote
As we now find out is that FileList has not good code in it.
You are misunderstanding what Hans-Martin meant. This is not about the code in FileList.
I think I did understand Martin quite well.
Squeak's "Text" class does support embedded graphics.
Yes, I am aware of this. I have used it in the past.
This is way more powerful and elegant than cooking up a FileList replacement, or extending FileList with a special bitmap preview facility.
My concern at _this_ very moment is that Squeak 4.1 does not have a preview for graphic files in the FileList.
Having that will solve the immediate problem that a new person who starts to use the FileList will think: "what have these guys been doing all the time if can't display a graphic image in the file explorer?"
All one would have to do is instead of showing a bitmap file's contents as text characters, have it show a text containing the form itself (plus possibly some more detailed text).
Yes, sure. That is a good solution.
The problem is that that support seems to suffer from bit rot. I bet there are people on this list who wouldn't even know it exists. Former Squeak releases made use of this even in the Welcome text window (I remember a multi-colored 'S' in 'Squeak') - maybe we should resurrect that :)
It would be great to have that back.
In any case I agree with HMM that this would be the most elegant route.
I agree too but who is going to fix the Text class ....
- Bert -
Cheers -- Hannes
Am 27.04.2010 00:56, schrieb Hannes Hirzel:
My concern at _this_ very moment is that Squeak 4.1 does not have a preview for graphic files in the FileList.
Having that will solve the immediate problem that a new person who starts to use the FileList will think: "what have these guys been doing all the time if can't display a graphic image in the file explorer?"
You have been heard. Looks at Tools-hmm.236 in the Inbox.
BTW, FormSetFont works (due to the aforementioned bit rot) only when the text emphasized with it contains a space character. The necessary changes to make it work with other characters are left as an exercise for the reader :-)
Cheers, Hans-Martin
Hans-Martin
Thank you very much indeed for taking care of this! I have seen your entry in the inbox yesterday and I wanted to react immediately but then I had to go.
This was a very needed fix.
The other remark about FormSetFont is helpful as well. If I understand you correctly it means that the fix is not so difficult....
--Hannes
On 4/27/10, Hans-Martin Mosner hmm@heeg.de wrote:
Am 27.04.2010 00:56, schrieb Hannes Hirzel:
My concern at _this_ very moment is that Squeak 4.1 does not have a preview for graphic files in the FileList.
Having that will solve the immediate problem that a new person who starts to use the FileList will think: "what have these guys been doing all the time if can't display a graphic image in the file explorer?"
You have been heard. Looks at Tools-hmm.236 in the Inbox.
BTW, FormSetFont works (due to the aforementioned bit rot) only when the text emphasized with it contains a space character. The necessary changes to make it work with other characters are left as an exercise for the reader :-)
Cheers, Hans-Martin
Hello
I have tested the FileList fix of Hans-Martin which is in the inbox **
Test --------
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-April/149861.htm...
Comment on the implementation -----------------------------------------------------
Bert writes:
"Squeak's "Text" class does support embedded graphics."
Hans-Martin has used this to display the graphics file. He constructs a text with the image meta data and a font with one "character" which is the image.
The following is the core code which does this job. Note the use of the class FormSetFont to create the one-character-font on the fly.
form := Form fromFileNamed: self fullName. ........
contents := ('Image extent: ', ext printString) asText, (String with: Character cr), (Text string: ' ' attribute: (TextFontReference toFont: (FormSetFont new fromFormArray: (Array with: form) asciiStart: Character space asInteger ascent: form height))).
Recommendation --------------------------
I recommend to include this in the trunk.
I agree with Bert that this is not so urgent as to make an immediate 4.1.1. necessary. But in case a 4.1.1 gets released I would say this should be included.
I think people expect these days that a multimedia Squeak displays a picture in the FileExplorer (i.e. FileList). It is good that important meta information (size) is displayed as well. This is a nice example of a picture embedded in a text and very useful not only in FileList. I am happy that this is possible again in Squeak 4.1
--Hannes
** The code this mail is about http://source.squeak.org/inbox/Tools-hmm.236.mcz
On 4/28/10, Hannes Hirzel hannes.hirzel@gmail.com wrote:
Hans-Martin
Thank you very much indeed for taking care of this! I have seen your entry in the inbox yesterday and I wanted to react immediately but then I had to go.
This was a very needed fix.
The other remark about FormSetFont is helpful as well. If I understand you correctly it means that the fix is not so difficult....
--Hannes
On 4/27/10, Hans-Martin Mosner hmm@heeg.de wrote:
Am 27.04.2010 00:56, schrieb Hannes Hirzel:
My concern at _this_ very moment is that Squeak 4.1 does not have a preview for graphic files in the FileList.
Having that will solve the immediate problem that a new person who starts to use the FileList will think: "what have these guys been doing all the time if can't display a graphic image in the file explorer?"
You have been heard. Looks at Tools-hmm.236 in the Inbox.
BTW, FormSetFont works (due to the aforementioned bit rot) only when the text emphasized with it contains a space character. The necessary changes to make it work with other characters are left as an exercise for the reader :-)
Cheers, Hans-Martin
Am 28.04.2010 12:13, schrieb Hannes Hirzel:
The other remark about FormSetFont is helpful as well. If I understand you correctly it means that the fix is not so difficult....
Oh that was meant tongue-in-cheek. "Left as an exercise for the reader" usually means: "I think it is possible but it doesn't look trivial and at the moment I don't have an idea how to solve it"...
Cheers, Hans-Martin
On 26.04.2010, at 21:36, Hannes Hirzel wrote:
As Smalltalk is the grand-daddy of graphical user interfaces it strikes me with horror that after 30 years I do not see a picture if I browse through directories with the main file explorer tool. I think this needs a fix ASAP if we want to expose Squeak to a wider audience.
I agree with you this needs improvement. I don't agree that this warrants an emergency release update.
The quick fix for the time being is not to expose this deficiency in a screen shot. A image morph would be better. I see the necessity for a little maintenance release 4.1.1 which fixes this and similar problems.
This 4.1.1. could as well include the menu registry solution (either pragma or MenuSpec) and some other things e.g. 'Right-click on workspace stops functioning'
This is totally unrelated. Besides, people don't even seem to use "spawn" regularly, or someone would have reported this much earlier. So it's not "urgent".
What do other's think about this issue? Would it be an option to go for a 4.1.1. release within a few days? Maybe next Saturday? These are not really difficult things to fix. More difficult things might be unearthed later and that would call for a 4.1.2 two weeks later.....
Kind regards Hannes
IMHO any further 4.1.x releases should fix critical bugs only, not add features.
I like your enthusiasm, but it would be better directed at the trunk :)
I'd much rather have actual releases more often than wasting time by putting lipstick on old releases ;)
- Bert -
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Hannes Hirzel -
Hans-Martin Mosner -
Ian Trudel