Some time ago I asked if anyone knew where the sources for the swiki we use for wiki.squeak.org might be found and I'm pleased to report for the record that I may well have found them.
Whilst bumbling around the swiki hoping to tidy up some documentation I came across http://wiki.squeak.org/swiki/15 "Downloading Swiki Servers". And lo, what did I find but actual downloadable packages that at least appear to be swiki code! My Ghast is well and truly Flabbered.
Notice how this page is quite different to most of the swiki pages. How it is locked in a different way. I think we're in the Twiglet Zone here folks... or at least a different wiki in the swiki.
So now the obvious question is whether it is interesting, practical and worthwhile to make use of this to create an updated version. IIRC we still run the swiki on an ancient vm & image set; perhaps it would be good to modernise?
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.
Interesting anecdote that you can run a system for years without knowing its source :-)
Should it maybe be on Squeaksource or Github or so?
Just a random idea in case someone should modernize swiki: Maybe we could remove some duplication between the HelpBrowser contents and the swiki contents? Ideally, the SWiki adapter would not need to scrape the help contents but could use a convenient rest api, and then we could link as many help topics from Help-Squeak-Project directly to the matching swiki pages (and cache them in the ReleaseBuilder).
Best,
Christoph
________________________________ Von: Squeak-dev squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org im Auftrag von tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Januar 2020 02:26:00 An: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Betreff: [squeak-dev] Found at last - swiki sources!
Some time ago I asked if anyone knew where the sources for the swiki we use for wiki.squeak.org might be found and I'm pleased to report for the record that I may well have found them.
Whilst bumbling around the swiki hoping to tidy up some documentation I came across http://wiki.squeak.org/swiki/15 "Downloading Swiki Servers". And lo, what did I find but actual downloadable packages that at least appear to be swiki code! My Ghast is well and truly Flabbered.
Notice how this page is quite different to most of the swiki pages. How it is locked in a different way. I think we're in the Twiglet Zone here folks... or at least a different wiki in the swiki.
So now the obvious question is whether it is interesting, practical and worthwhile to make use of this to create an updated version. IIRC we still run the swiki on an ancient vm & image set; perhaps it would be good to modernise?
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.
I’m happy you found this. I always liked this page. As Hannes said previously, I ported Swiki to 4.5. [1] It’d be cool to add an example of TurtleGraphics to WebServer. It was a module in Comanche in Squeak 3.1 (~2001). If this Squeak4.5 image is of any use to you, you're welcome to it.
Chris
The Beaches - Want What You Got https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gggDVJfvhgM
[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/ju4gkvxyc96xhp2/SwikiIn4.5.zip?dl=0
On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:26 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
Some time ago I asked if anyone knew where the sources for the swiki we use for wiki.squeak.org might be found and I'm pleased to report for the record that I may well have found them.
Whilst bumbling around the swiki hoping to tidy up some documentation I came across http://wiki.squeak.org/swiki/15 "Downloading Swiki Servers". And lo, what did I find but actual downloadable packages that at least appear to be swiki code! My Ghast is well and truly Flabbered.
Notice how this page is quite different to most of the swiki pages. How it is locked in a different way. I think we're in the Twiglet Zone here folks... or at least a different wiki in the swiki.
So now the obvious question is whether it is interesting, practical and worthwhile to make use of this to create an updated version. IIRC we still run the swiki on an ancient vm & image set; perhaps it would be good to modernise?
tim
tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.
On 2020-01-27, at 8:52 AM, Chris Cunnington brasspen@gmail.com wrote:
I’m happy you found this. I always liked this page. As Hannes said previously, I ported Swiki to 4.5. [1]
Dang, I didn't notice that go by. Still, downloaded and currently running on my iMac. Cool! Surely it's not the same as the wiki.squeak.org though, unless there are a lot more UI settings than I've spotted so far?
And of course - is anyone likely to be interested in updating the code to be good for 5.3, to maybe keep pages in a database (Magma?) or in files, maybe consider the updates being suggested by Nicola Mingotti?
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: LINO: Last In, Never Out mode
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:27 AM tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
On 2020-01-27, at 8:52 AM, Chris Cunnington brasspen@gmail.com wrote:
I’m happy you found this. I always liked this page. As Hannes said
previously, I ported Swiki to 4.5. [1]
Dang, I didn't notice that go by. Still, downloaded and currently running on my iMac. Cool! Surely it's not the same as the wiki.squeak.org though, unless there are a lot more UI settings than I've spotted so far?
It is the same, literally – just click the link you typed ;)
- Bert -
Just for a point of contrast you might like to look at this implementation.
https://swikis.ddo.jp/ https://swikis.ddo.jp/ http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1384 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1384
Chris
On Jan 27, 2020, at 4:34 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:27 AM tim Rowledge <tim@rowledge.org mailto:tim@rowledge.org> wrote:
On 2020-01-27, at 8:52 AM, Chris Cunnington <brasspen@gmail.com mailto:brasspen@gmail.com> wrote:
I’m happy you found this. I always liked this page. As Hannes said previously, I ported Swiki to 4.5. [1]
Dang, I didn't notice that go by. Still, downloaded and currently running on my iMac. Cool! Surely it's not the same as the wiki.squeak.org http://wiki.squeak.org/ though, unless there are a lot more UI settings than I've spotted so far?
It is the same, literally – just click the link you typed ;)
- Bert -
On 2020-01-27, at 1:34 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:27 AM tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
On 2020-01-27, at 8:52 AM, Chris Cunnington brasspen@gmail.com wrote:
I’m happy you found this. I always liked this page. As Hannes said previously, I ported Swiki to 4.5. [1]
Dang, I didn't notice that go by. Still, downloaded and currently running on my iMac. Cool! Surely it's not the same as the wiki.squeak.org though, unless there are a lot more UI settings than I've spotted so far?
It is the same, literally – just click the link you typed ;)
Yup, you got me. In my defence my email tells me the last time I did anything serious related to swiki development was early 2001 which is long enough ago that I'm not sure I was actually there.
Just for the record in case I or anyone else needs to google for it in the future, the all-in-one (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ju4gkvxyc96xhp2/SwikiIn4.5.zip?dl=0) Chris mentioned includes the structure imposed by Apple's odd decisions, and a key subdirectory is 'swiki', which contains directories for various types of swiki. There are templates of html and chunks of code that are used to implement the specific swiki; so the UI changes that caught me out are implemented in them. I assume the relevant files for the public swiki are alive and well on the machine hosting it...
Chris - do you have any notes on the building of the system, code snippets etc? I note that the repository for the Swiki package is inaccessible these days. It really would be nice to get this updated to go on SqueakMap for insta-loading.
tim -- tim Rowledge; tim@rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim 'Profanity: the universal programming language'
On Jan 27, 2020, at 6:39 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
Chris - do you have any notes on the building of the system, code snippets etc? I note that the repository for the Swiki package is inaccessible these days. It really would be nice to get this updated to go on SqueakMap for insta-loading.
When was Squeak4.5? Five, six years ago? I haven’t looked at this in a while. I’ll need a bit of time to reflect. I do seem to remember that the separation between application and data was pretty clear, so if you have a new application you can just point it to the right directory and it’ll set itself up. What I mean is if you wanted to replace the wiki.squeak.org http://wiki.squeak.org/ you should be able to park a new application over the existing directory of files and just turn it on. Mark Guzdial is a professor after all. Install from SqueakMap? I’ll have to think about it some.
Chris
Fun Loving Criminals - Scoobie Snacks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQMDud01WPo
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 07:31:30PM -0500, Chris Cunnington wrote:
On Jan 27, 2020, at 6:39 PM, tim Rowledge tim@rowledge.org wrote:
Chris - do you have any notes on the building of the system, code snippets etc? I note that the repository for the Swiki package is inaccessible these days. It really would be nice to get this updated to go on SqueakMap for insta-loading.
When was Squeak4.5? Five, six years ago? I haven???t looked at this in a while. I???ll need a bit of time to reflect. I do seem to remember that the separation between application and data was pretty clear, so if you have a new application you can just point it to the right directory and it???ll set itself up. What I mean is if you wanted to replace the wiki.squeak.org http://wiki.squeak.org/ you should be able to park a new application over the existing directory of files and just turn it on. Mark Guzdial is a professor after all. Install from SqueakMap? I???ll have to think about it some.
Chris
It might be a good idea to open a new squeaksource.com project to capture the existing (old) swiki code in a Monticello package, and then apply updates to that as we bring things up to date. The new project should have a pointer back to http://wiki.squeak.org/swiki/15 along with credits to the original authors.
I notice also that Nicola Mingotti has quite recently added some swiki enhancements in www.squeaksource.com/SwikiExtraUtils so it may well be that a few people have swiki enhancements waiting to be adopted.
Dave
I guess I’ll jot down a few notes about the Swiki over the next few days in no particular order for anybody who’s interested. Some of this stuff will likely start to wilt under close scrutiny, but I think it should give a good quick sketch and save people time. I’ve started a new thread to make it easier to find in future.
On Jan 27, 2020, at 9:02 PM, David T. Lewis lewis@mail.msen.com wrote:
It might be a good idea to open a new squeaksource.com http://squeaksource.com/ project to capture the existing (old) swiki code in a Monticello package, and then apply updates to that as we bring things up to date. The new project should have a pointer back to http://wiki.squeak.org/swiki/15 http://wiki.squeak.org/swiki/15 along with credits to the original authors.
It’d be easy to push some code into squeaksource.com. I’m just not sure what parts. There are basically three: Comanche stuff; Swiki-Comanche connection; and Swiki. The first two parts have to be thrown out. I don’t think Comanche works on 5.2 (nor should it.) I said this to Hannes and Edgar and they weren’t too thrilled with me. So, I’d guess it needs to be ported to WebServer. That means at the moment the only parts to save to SqueakSource would be Swiki categories with no server. It might be good to figure out its future server before pushing code into a repository. It’s a thought.
I notice also that Nicola Mingotti has quite recently added some swiki enhancements in www.squeaksource.com/SwikiExtraUtils http://www.squeaksource.com/SwikiExtraUtils so it may well be that a few people have swiki enhancements waiting to be adopted.
I think this is a scraper for harvesting Swiki content. Likely to put it into HelpBook.
. Get the text area of a 'wiki.squeak.org' page. . ----- Example ----- tmp := SwikiWeb getPageTextarea: 'http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2821' user: 'squeak' pass: 'viewpoints'. tmp
A few notes on Swiki. It uses a Shelf—>Book—>Page metaphor. If you visit this page http://wiki.squeak.org/ http://wiki.squeak.org/ you will see one shelf with two books. Page are self explanatory, I think. If you visit this page https://swikis.ddo.jp/ https://swikis.ddo.jp/ you’ll see one shelf with ten books. Swiki is meant to be a collection of wikis for a group of people.
In the Swiki-Structure category you’ll see SwikiShelf, SwikiBook and NuSwikiPage. I think Nu- means New and replaced some earlier version of a SwikiPage.
The behaviour is all in the image. The state is all in the files.
The file structure default is always a directory called swiki. It has three directories inside that ani, default, and refs. When you boot up a new image, you point the application at the swiki directory wherever it is.
When you start rooting around in these directories you will see files named things like 1.xml, 2.xml or just 1,2,3. Exploring these files in the desktop can feel sickening. You’re not supposed to do that. These are xml files and files containing snippets of Smalltalk code.
You’re supposed to explore those files using the SwikiBrowser. It’s a file browser looking into those directories on disk. You open it with something like:
(SwikiBrowser asMorphOnShelf: shelf label: label) openInWorld.
I guess I’ll leave it there for now.
Chris
The Police - Demolition Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpYrXHT1v9g
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tim Rowledge