Hi Dan
I sent this email because I was frustrated to see just the top of the iceberg. I was thinking ok he made that like that. and I like your answer.
I think that this kind of email is the price (cheap even if time is our most precious resource) for transparency and mutual understanding so thanks.
I will try the new synatx as soon as the new version is released (I'm still loving a lot the stability of VW :) even if it is grey :)
I think that this is good to have new syntax around to play with. but this should be for a better one. What I like with the normal one is the simplicity.
So I really wonder why kids or nonprofessional learn faster with non uniformity.
For the tiles system, I really interested by that too. And especially the connection between the tiles and the code because the fact that only a subset f the language and that the connection between the tile and the methods were not there make it not pratical.
So a debugger with tile could be great ;) Where when I moved the mouse over them they tell I'm that with that state ;)
Resent-date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:32:10 +0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:36:06 -0700 Resent-from: squeak@cs.uiuc.edu From: Dan Ingalls Dan.Ingalls@disney.com Subject: Re: About the new syntax Resent-sender: squeak-request@cs.uiuc.edu X-Sender: Dani@mail.rd.wdi.disney.com To: squeak@cs.uiuc.edu Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; Resent-message-id: JvKblC.A.exF.ai9P5@jerry.cs.uiuc.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Loop: squeak@cs.uiuc.edu X-Mailing-List: squeak@cs.uiuc.edu archive/latest/21060
Stephane Ducasse ducasse@iam.unibe.ch wrote...
Did Kim tried the new syntax with kids?
It would be good to evaluate (two groups one we the normal and one with new) if the new syntax is better.
What is the process that you are planning to put in place to evaluate the effectivness of the new syntax?
Only how we react or also kids?
From the experience we have with kids here. They do not have any problems
with the old syntax.
Hi Stephane -
I'm glad to hear it. It must be obvious that I'm as much of a fan of normal
Smalltalk as anyone.
Frequently in our history, we have tried to step back and take a fresh look at
things. Alan and others of us have wondered, numerous times, if changing things a bit this way or that might make Squeak more "approachable" for newbies, or for people who are used to other scripting languages available in various corners of the internet. This becomes more understandable when you think of little hypercard-like bits of scripted content distributed around the internet.
So, after hand-translating a number of methods, and not being sure if we could
compile this or that, I decided to bite the bullet and produce a framework for experimentation. AS A PLACEHOLDER, I implemented a syntax that was a lot like some of our jottings, and similar to a colon-free syntax that I derived in a message (on 2/17) responding to Aran Lunzer's query about terminal keywords.
THE FRAMEWORK is what this is about. It's even a bit of a hack compared to
what one might want in a flexible syntax layer, but it does allow one to "turn on" a completely different syntax at the flip of a switch, and yet continue to save and share work in standard ST-80. Moreover the test routine in DialectParser allows one to determine at any time whether the syntax you have implemented can decompile and recompile all 30,000 methods in the system without changing one bytecode.
As soon as the framework seems solid, I'm kind of hoping to withdraw, and let
other people try some other approaches. See, now instead of flaming, everyone can implement their own favorite syntax, and send around some real examples. If anything looked like a clear winner, all of Squeakville could be using it a day later! Similarly, to answer your question above, as soon as we have one we like, we can now try it out easily with kids or Disney executives or whoever.
Right now I'm a bit more excited about some experiments Scott Wallace is doing
to bridge the gap between programs as text and the tile scripts in Morphic. If one could take a beginner through the first hour of exploring Squeak, playing with "good-old" ST-80, but never having to write it, I think we would have a good start.
- Dan
Stephane DUCASSE (ducasse@iam.unibe.ch) http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/ "if you knew today was your last day on earth, what would you do different? ... especially if, by doing something different, today might not be your last day on earth" Calvin&Hobbes
University of Bern, Institut fuer informatik and Mathematik IAM-SCG, 10 neubruckstrasse, CH-3012 Bern, Switzerland.
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