Squeak-dev April 2009

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

104 participants
168 discussions

About package renaming
by Igor Stasenko 27 Apr '09

27 Apr '09

Hello folks, recently ive seen some messages about package renaming (but not sure in which list, so i post to both ;). I have a simple problem, and i hope it having a simple solution: i want to rename an MC package to different name. Is there any support from tools (MC/browser) to do this automatically? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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FANN Bindings for Linux preliminary working version available for download
by Casimiro de Almeida Barreto 26 Apr '09

26 Apr '09

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Re: [squeak-dev] FANN bindings for Linux
by "S.J.Chun" 25 Apr '09

25 Apr '09

neural network library, right? why not, everyone would be interested in it :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Casimiro de Almeida Barreto <casimiro.barreto(a)gmail.com> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Sent: 09-04-24 23:50:33 Subject: [squeak-dev] FANN bindings for Linux I have been working in a preliminary version of FANN bindings for Linux (derived from the bindings for Windows which are not all that complete...). I'd like to know if there's interest that I publish it. It demands FFI installed. Best regards, Casimiro

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Ephemerons
by Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez 25 Apr '09

25 Apr '09

I am trying to get the Ephemerons implementations from Andreas Raab, but I can't find it. In the pages: http://map.squeak.org/package/fe2a35f5-3f97-431e-8596-58e810aa3c72 http://map.squeak.org/package/fe2a35f5-3f97-431e-8596-58e810aa3c72/autovers… I found this link: http://isgwww.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/~raab/squeak/packages/Ephemerons/Ephemero… but is broken. Where can I find the code? Thanks, Miguel Cobá

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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Ubuntu package maintainers help
by Jerome Peace 24 Apr '09

24 Apr '09

Hi Matej, Thanks for your reply. I think we are running into the meta-level confusion again. Installing from squeakland means installing the etoys image. And it installed the np* pieces in its vm directory and the links in the firefox directories. So the firefox on MY ubuntu runs the etoys image when I test my web-plugin. The squeak-plugin-image that ubuntu lists, according to Bert, seems to be an earlier incarnation of this squeakland offering. When it was still being called squeak. And therefore the web-plugin image the squeak-plugin. I really begin to feel as if I am back in Lewis Caroll's thru the looking glass as the white knight is about to recite his poem. http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap08.htm --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Matej Kosik <kosik(a)fiit.stuba.sk> wrote: > From: Matej Kosik <kosik(a)fiit.stuba.sk> > Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Ubuntu package maintainers help > To: peace_the_dreamer(a)yahoo.com > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 5:12 PM > Jerome Peace wrote: > > Umm. Ok. So the web-plugin image has a sort of > contract with the .pr files that want to be run in it. > > > > Is there any reason why we wish a squeak image for a > web-plugin? Rather than an Etoys-image for the web-plugin. I > ask this because Squeakland seems to me to be the only one > right now persuing this. > > AFAIK they have cornered the market. > > The squeak-plugin-inmage (Debian package) brings in > squeakland image. I > think that is OK. > > Rarely, when I did some fancy things, they were working in > ordinary > Squeak images (3.8, 3.9) but they did not work in > squeakland image. One > must count with that when he creates pr projects for the > web. > > Ideally, those *.pr files are authored directly in the > squeakland image. > Right. I have found *.pr files like their home image more than others. In particular they don't travel well between forks. Etoys moved the layout slots and that causes confusion if I try etoys *.pr's in 3.9+ and vice versa. There are probably other points of friction. I think from Bert's reply, we would recommend that a squeak-plugin package is something that squeakland used to promote and it has now become an etoys web-plugin. > > > > I seriously doubt that either the 3.9/3.10 branch wants > to pursue maintaining this. > > Ditto for the Pharo branch. > > I do not understand > (but maybe my prior note clarifies what you meant) Yes. The plugin is associated with Squeakland and not Squeak-dev. > > > > Bert: Any insight into this point? > > > >> In theory, any image could be used with > squeak-plugin but > >> it would > >> create a chaos. Creators of projects would not > know to what > >> properties > >> of the image they can rely. > >> > >>> Like say a command line passed from the > browser to the > >> image? > >>> How can we test images to see if they can be > browser > >> plugin images as well? > >> > >> If you figure out, where `squeak-plugin-image' > package > >> installs > >> /usr/share/squeak/SqueakPlugin.image.gz > >> the image, you can replace it with your own and > see what > >> happens. > >> > >> I think, once I have tried to do it, I think. > >> > > It has been easier for me to create launchers to > redirect > > the pieces. That way I don't have to deal with > special permissions. Everything can be in a local directory. > > > > My user story on this: Doing a save as in squeak on > Ubuntu sould also create an instance of a desktop launcher > for that image. I.E. Squeak should be Ubuntu aware on > Ubuntu. But that as the say is another story. (And my next > mantis issue.) > > > > > >>> Also as I was looking at the vmplugins it > looked like > >> for each supported browser we had a np<browser > >> name>Plugin. > >>> There was a link to the appropriate plugin > from the > >> firefox browser on my Ubuntu. So I presume each > brower would > >> need to be hooked up like that. > >> > >> I haven't seen such VM plugins. > >> > >>> Can you help clarify this for me? > > When I installed Etoys amoung the things in the vm > directory were > > > > /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/npetoys.so > > /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/npetoysregister > > /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/npetoysrun > > > > and a link > > /usr/lib/firefox/plugins/npetoys.so > > pointing to > > /usr/share/Etoys.app/Contents/Linux686/npetoys.so > > > > in the firefox directory. > > I am presuming that is what links the browser to > > its helper in this case the Etoys image and stuff. > > > > Jose would know more. > > (a guess) > > The np* prefix indicates that it is a "Netscape > Plugin". Like > `npsqueak.so' we provide. Bert Freudenberg wrote it. > What is different > in etoys web-browser plugin I have no clue. > > The npetoys.so is not "VM plugin". Okay. It just gets confused with one because it lives in the same directory. I still don't know what its low level function is. On the high level it gives Firefox the ability to start etoys as a helper. Jose has probably got a neat package with all these things and do dads. Also Pharo has compiled a list of vm-plugins at: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/VMPluginOverview it does not mention the np* class of things nor the vm-sound-* or vm-display-*. So I wonder what those classify as. > > The other files are only helper scripts. Could be. ===== On another note. The post to Jordan Mantha I copied to the list never reached him. Bounced. Apparently his public ubuntu address is a dummy to prevent him being overwhelmed. I copied it to the bug report Chris mentioned. Asked for some one to get it to him. And asked for a response. I did get a response this morning but only the automatic one from the launchpad tracker. I have received no human response from Jordan or anyone at ubuntu. So I am now putting this on a back burner. I have done all I can do to get this fixed on the ubuntu side. The only thing left to do is wait for some signs of life on their part. AFAIK their bug harvesting process somewhat resembles ours very chaotic and peculiar. ======= Thanks again for all your help. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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FANN bindings for Linux
by Casimiro de Almeida Barreto 24 Apr '09

24 Apr '09

I have been working in a preliminary version of FANN bindings for Linux (derived from the bindings for Windows which are not all that complete...). I'd like to know if there's interest that I publish it. It demands FFI installed. Best regards, Casimiro

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Re: Ubuntu package maintainers help
by Jerome Peace 23 Apr '09

23 Apr '09

[squeak-dev] Re: Ubuntu package maintainers help Hi Matej, Looking at your dependency chart I see that there is now a language clash. We need to disambiguate what is meant by squeak-plugin. The word plugin is used to mean both sqeuak-browser-plugin which is a dingus that adds functionality to an external browser. and squeak-internal-plugins which are pieces that add functionality or speed to squeak itself. those plugins are things like vm-sound-ALSA which when missing caused the sound problem on Ubuntu. Most of the time those plugins are in a default path and there is no need to mention them. For etoys the default path plugins are in the same place as the vm itself. For the ubuntu squeak the plugins are in a separate directory than the vm and the shell just happens to know where that is. To add to the merry confusion. There are vmplugins to make the squeak-browser-plugin work. These are in the vmplugin directory with and np... prefix. On Ubuntu the sqeuak-plugin package is considered different than the squeak package. The squeak-plugin package may also refer to a particular image. Maybe there is something special a squeak needs to do if being run in a browser. Murkier and murkier. ===== Howerer when I am trying to describe a problem that concerns them the other meaning of the word plugin confuses things a lot. So we need to find and use a consistent language that allows us to distinguish between the browser plugin and a vm extention plugin. Particularly for the benifit of external packagers. Jose: how do you deal with this? How do we disambiguate the two meanings? Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace <snipped the original> read in the context of: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/135737.ht…

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Squeak soundless on Ubuntu.
by Jerome Peace 23 Apr '09

23 Apr '09

Dear Jordan Mantha, This is sort of a heads up. Jerome Peace, bug tracker here. I recently started using squeak on a Ubuntu system. I am old to squeak but new to Ubuntu and Linux. So everything about setting up is new. Presently loading what Ubuntu offers as a download causes squeak to operate without sound. The vm-sound-ASLA and vm-sound-OSS plugins do not come with the offered package. This has been a problem for over a year. I am pushing to find someone to act on a solution that solves the problem, not just for myself but for all other naive Ubuntu users who just want to use squeak. Proof that the solution is in place will be to download and install the Ubuntu offered squeak and have it work with sound. I have written the squeak-dev list and you can find the posts in the April 2009 archives by searching for Ubuntu. http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-April/date.html You were mentioned by Matej Kosik as the maintainer of the Ubuntu distribution. So I am writing you to let you know what is going on. Any help you can offer will be appreciated. Copying your replies to the list will be helpful. The actions I would like to see taken are these. 1) The priority of the bug on launchpad should be changed from undecided to major or blocking. Computers can interface with users only through the sense of sight or sound. To be missing one of them blocks half of their abilities. 2) Sound can be restored to future downloads by simply coping the vm-sound-ALSA plugin from the Etoys distribution into the squeak distribution ( the copied file to be named vm-sound-ALSA.so to go along with the naming scheme.) Nothing more than that is needed to solve this bug.* 3) An update should be made available to 8.04 LTS and others that checks for the squeak package, checks the squeak vmplugin library iff vm-sound-ALSA.so is missing it recreates and installs that file. 4) These actions taken with the priority implied in step 1. This fix would probably fix problem that MIT's Scratch is having as well. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace *You may have a wish to recreate the plugin from source. I imagine the source for the Etoys plugin would do for a start. Or others more knowledgable than I could point to it. The existing binaries have worked fine in my tests. My main point is that this is a serious enough bug that it deserves to be squashed NOW without further delay.

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Re: [squeak-dev] Launching squeak (etoys, scratch) on Ubuntu
by Jerome Peace 23 Apr '09

23 Apr '09

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Matej Kosik <kosik(a)fiit.stuba.sk> wrote: > From: Matej Kosik <kosik(a)fiit.stuba.sk> > Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Launching squeak (etoys, scratch) on Ubuntu > To: peace_the_dreamer(a)yahoo.com > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 1:43 AM > Jerome Peace wrote: > > Hi Matej, > > > > Thanks for your reply and your information. > > > > I tried wading in but it got much deeper than I really > want to go. > > > > I don't think I want to contact Jordan until I > know what I want to ask of him. > > > > I did find out the Jaunty Jackalope comes out > tomorrow. So I wonder if squeak will have sound then. I > suspect not. > > > > Would you know why the squeak vmplugins are getting a > ".so" suffix and what that means? > > Files with ".so" suffix in Linux represent > dynamically linked libraries. > You can think of them as DLL from Windows. > > I haven't studied SqueakVM code and I haven't > worked with VMMaker but, > unless I am wrong, external plugins for SqueakVM are built > as > dynamically linked libraries. Ah. Thank you. The etoys plugins do not have that suffix. And the squeak vm seems not to care whether it is there or not. I did an experiment tonight. I copied into my home directory all the ubuntu distribution squeak (vm)plugins. Then I copied in the vm-sound-ALSA plugin from the etoys (vm) plugins. I made a launcher that pointed to my newly created directory and was able to launch sqeuak with sound. So that one patch could solve the problem plaguing everyone. So nearly there. Cheers, -Jer

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Launching squeak (etoys, scratch) on Ubuntu
by Jerome Peace 23 Apr '09

23 Apr '09

I have read most of the discussions between Bert, and Jose and Matej. I want for a minute to get back to the original user story I started with. I want to be able to launch squeak on Ubuntu and have it come up with sound. I want a user story that sounds like Aladdin and his marvelous lamp. Rub the lamp the Djinn appears and grants all your carefully stated wishes. Ubuntu has a very rich launcher. You can click or double click one and it will perform a well stated command. You can drag a launcher onto a panel and a copy stays on the panel. You can drag a launcher off a panel or menu and get a copy of it on the desktop. These copies, I can modify by requesting access to their properties. The noticed problem is that in the case of the default sqeuak launcher. This does not include sound. An oversight of the packaging but the cure is more simple that reading and understanding the DFSC or whatever. The workaround is: I have a directory with the right plugins. A directory with a squeak-vm. A directory with a squeak image and changes and sources. I tell a launcher all this information in the form of a well stated command. Voila, I have a perfectly good lamp to hold my Djinn. This seemed to me what Jose said he was concerned his package should include. The packaging issue is about putting all the pieces in the default places. While sufficient it is more than what is necessary. The pieces must be there. The lamp must have someway of knowing about them and their location. Aladdin must know about the lamp. I imagine I could even have a bootstrap lamp to light the others. I.E. A launcher to go-out find and download and install the various pieces. What's missing is not the pieces. They exist in various places on the web. What's missing are the lamps for launching the pieces and the lamps for installing them. What's also missing is Aladdin's knowledge of the secret of how to get the lamp. So how do we get Aladdin his lamp in the case of Ubuntu? I think we need to start with the squeak.org download page. If Aladdin goes to the download cave and says open "I'm on Ubuntu" that should be all that is required of him to find a download lamp. If he rubs the download lamp and says. "I'd like a fully functioning squeak on my system. And a lamp to use it with." Then the Djinn grants that wish. Then Aladdin can leave the download Djinn in peace. Which, after all this discussion he might be wishing for himself. Hth, Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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