Squeak-dev July 2000

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566 discussions

Re: Ship it with Squeak
by Stefan Matthias Aust 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

At 09:00 29.06.00 +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote: >Hi Stefan > >thanks for all your work. You're welcome. >just a question: > >Are you selling application in Squeak? Yes. Well, not me personally but the company I'm working for. >can you say more? It's a solution for a customer who wants to sell customized weather reports to ship captains. We used Squeak to implement a server that automatically processes weather report requests and that creates the responses calculated from some 50 MB of weather data. Smalltalk turned out to be really helpful as we're still tweaking and fine tuning the application while feeding it with test data with no compile time interruptions or other turn-around-time lost. Squeak is a little bit slow but with a fast PC it's sufficient and still cheaper than a professional Smalltalk system. So as I didn't want to use Java I convinced my boss to try out Squeak ;-) The main obstacle was Squeaks poorly implemented file io. They're very slow (but one can fortunately do this s := (FileStream fileNamed: 'foobar') contentsOfEntireFile readStream work around) and we lost time because of that really stupid behavior of opening requestors if a file doesn't exist or whether it should be overwritten. I cursed the author of that design multiple times. IMHO, there should be two different level: core and UI. We also tried to provide a small administration UI but failed because that would have taken too much time compared to a solution in Java or another language. Interestingly, the customer wouldn't have cared about Squeak's look (MVC, with my newlook extensions) bye -- Stefan Matthias Aust // Bevor wir fallen, fallen wir lieber auf

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Re: Ship it with Squeak
by Stefan Matthias Aust 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

At 09:01 01.07.00 -0400, Bijan Parsia wrote: >Well, for Squeak---and the typesetting world---they're different >fonts. Really? Then I'm sorry and I have so say that I wanted to talk about font *families*. Everything else seems very strange for me. I would never expect that a larger font has completely different glyphs. I'm glad you posted a gif to prove that you're right. I'm also very glad that you take it personal to defend Squeak (even it I didn't attack it or challenge you) ;-) Your argument, however, isn't fair. As Squeak is turning-complete, it can do everything (perhaps with the exception of washing cars), if programmed correctly. The system that comes right of the box however can't show multiple forms if you don't reprogram (which includes manipulating textstyle objects) it. So let's settle that argumentation by agreeing that we're both correct. >P.P.P.P.S. But since we feature-whining...what I'm *dying* for is a Squeak >port of Lucene (a java VTwin full text search >clone): http://lucene.sourceforge.net/ Any java literate folks up to >taking it on? For *meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee*? <blink/> <flutter/> <blink/> >P.P.P.P.P.S. (Different "blink" tag...don't be fooled.) Well, then go forward with a good example and port it... :-) bye -- Stefan Matthias Aust // Bevor wir fallen, fallen wir lieber auf

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Re: Ship it with Squeak
by Tim Rowledge 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

In message <4.3.2.7.2.20000629200019.00b83280(a)post.strato.de> you wrote: > So please let me repeat my question: Can you show one word written in font > Comic12 and another word in font NewYork12 in the same workspace in the > same size? Looking at the "Welcome to..." window, there should be a way, > but AFAIK, you can't. Oh really, of course you can. Add some more fonts to the textstyle. There's nothing there that makes it impossible or even hard to mix fonts. Included is a tiny gif to illustrate. tim -- Tim Rowledge, tim(a)sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim Strange OpCodes: XA: Execute Address field

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Re: Ship it with Squeak
by Stefan Matthias Aust 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

At 11:08 01.07.00 +0200, Henrik Gedenryd wrote: >As usual, there is a pretty big difference between what you can do in code >and in the UI. Although my knowledge is no complete here, my impression is >that there is a limit to one TextStyle per paragraph. Now a TextStyle >contains an arbitrary array of StrikeFonts--in the vanilla image these just >contain different sizes of the same 'font'. The terminology is difficult >here, but a StrikeFont is essentially a bitmap with the different >characters. So AFAI understand it (and I've tried it) you can just place >SF's with different 'fonts' in the same TS and off you go. This is of course >not an ideal situation today, but as usual I think the problem is that it's >far from bad enough that someone will take the effort to improve it, so to >speak. I'd guess the problem is that the TextScanner needs some fast >primitives, and passing on a bunch of different TS's might be a problem in >this respect. This was the information I was looking for and even I'd call it a big hack it's a clever way of working around the current limitations. Thank you. >Dunno. But don't let the interface fool you :) This reminds me on a way I think the UI task force (or whatever they call themselves) of the Gnome project goes. If somebody reports a missing feature which is actually already available, then it's a bug in UI. Hidden features are of no value. So let's consider this as a bug report ;-) bye -- Stefan Matthias Aust // Bevor wir fallen, fallen wir lieber auf

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RE: Ship it with Squeak
by Raab, Andreas 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

> > So please let me repeat my question: Can you show one word > > written in font Comic12 and another word in font NewYork12 > > in the same workspace in the same size? Looking at the > > "Welcome to..." window, there should be a way, but AFAIK, you can't. It's quite possible - all you need is to classify all the fonts in the same text style. Not a good way to do it since some of the information that is supposedly the same for a text style are different in the fonts but possible. More generally, I'd like to see some of the information that is currently in the text style to be in the font itself so that all you need to fully specify the layout of some string is defined in the font. Then, you basically don't need any text style any longer (and besides - specifying the fonts through an index in the font array of a text style rather than an explicit point size and the appropriate attributes is pretty dangerous if you change the style these days). > So, I *believe*, I sincerely *hope*, that it is now > established that there *is* a sufficently *rich* Rich Text Widget > for, at least, *some* purposes. I cannot say that it answers > to *all* purposes, but it's also pretty clear that *building* ones, > using a variety of techniques, is non-burdensome to various degreeds. Hm ... just wondering. Why is it that so many people cry for a Rich Text Widget?! Wouldn't a HTML spec serve the same purpose?! And we do have the formatter for it right in the system. - Andreas PS. Since we're talking about text here - the three things we really need for good text layout are a) fractional widths b) left/right side bearings and advance widths (for overhang and underhang characters) and c) kerning pairs (and possibly automatic detection of common ligatures). Anyone up to it?!

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Re: Ship it with Squeak
by Lawson English 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

"Raab, Andreas" <Andreas.Raab(a)disney.com> said: >> > So please let me repeat my question: Can you show one word >> > written in font Comic12 and another word in font NewYork12 >> > in the same workspace in the same size? Looking at the >> > "Welcome to..." window, there should be a way, but AFAIK, you can't. > > It's quite possible - all you need is to classify all the fonts in the same > text style. Not a good way to do it since some of the information that is > supposedly the same for a text style are different in the fonts but > possible. More generally, I'd like to see some of the information that is > currently in the text style to be in the font itself so that all you need to > fully specify the layout of some string is defined in the font. Then, you > basically don't need any text style any longer (and besides - specifying the > fonts through an index in the font array of a text style rather than an > explicit point size and the appropriate attributes is pretty dangerous if > you change the style these days). Check out the GXTypography GXLayout shape-object from GX graphics for an example of how to "do this right." > >> So, I *believe*, I sincerely *hope*, that it is now >> established that there *is* a sufficently *rich* Rich Text Widget >> for, at least, *some* purposes. I cannot say that it answers >> to *all* purposes, but it's also pretty clear that *building* ones, >> using a variety of techniques, is non-burdensome to various degreeds. > > Hm ... just wondering. Why is it that so many people cry for a Rich Text > Widget?! Wouldn't a HTML spec serve the same purpose?! And we do have the > formatter for it right in the system. How is it for reading and writing RTF? And does HTML allow arbitrary point sizes? What's the space consideration for RTF vs HTML storage? > > - Andreas > > PS. Since we're talking about text here - the three things we really need > for good text layout are a) fractional widths b) left/right side bearings > and advance widths (for overhang and underhang characters) and c) kerning > pairs (and possibly automatic detection of common ligatures). Anyone up to > it?! > > Again, check out the GXTypography GXLayout shape. Even avoiding right-to-left, vertical, bidirectional, etc., issues, there's a lot more needed for good, modern text-layout handling than what you've mentioned. -- YOU have the right to select the Reform Party Presidential Nominee, which doesn't have to be Pat Buchanan. Request a ballot BY Midnight, June 30. <http://www.reasontovote.com> Send your ballot-request via: FAX 515-472-2011 -mail won't get there in time Oops. Too late. --

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Re: Belling the cat of complexity (was: Ship it with Squeak)
by R. A. Harmon 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

At 10:17 AM 6/30/00 -0400, john.g.gardner(a)ca.pwcglobal.com wrote: > > >I agree. > >It also looks like many people on this list agree with the following principles: > >1. Squeak should be open and usable by everyone, with base class/VM changes >submitted for everyone's benefit. > >2. A modular Squeak, built up from a core functionality using images or plugins. > >3. A packaging utility which strips unnecessary classes from the distribution >and wraps some installation functionality around a shipping product. Or instead use the composite approach with the core functionality image in the release so that stripping isn't required? >I would like to add the following principles: [snip] > >My personal position is this: > >1. I would like to see that Squeak becomes a viable tool for creating software >products for sale. An open source version of Smalltalk is a powerful competitor >to Java, C++ and commercial Smalltalk. [snip] It seems to me there may be sufficient interest in an ANSI standard, open-source alternative to commercial dialects. This alternative apparently conflicts with the goal of Squeak Central and many on the list for a pure research vehicle. I think those wishing to ship an application (commercial, or free) would support this alternative. Also those looking to check out, learn, or use a free Smalltalk, and those teaching OOP or Smalltalk. I don't see any conflict between the above uses, and an ANSI standard, open-source alternative to commercial dialects would be used and supported by all. I suggest the project target those with the above uses. My main worry is that a separate fork or whatever for this may slowly die if there is no champion of it. Successful open-source projects all seem to have some institution or individual that supports it. I'm pretty hazy in my thoughts here, but this usually seems to be a company, or educational institution or department. The software is distributed from, and changes coordinated by, the champion. The champion seems to carry the project over the lean spots. Also on the licensing issues, maybe an alternative to trying to straighten out the Squeak situation would be to move useful ideas to GNU Smalltalk. I don't know if its license is more suited to the alternative Smalltalk. If not, are there other open-source Smalltalks that might serve better as the starting point? -- Richard A. Harmon "The only good zombie is a dead zombie" harmonra(a)webname.com E. G. McCarthy Spencer, Iowa

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[ENH] Celeste subject filtering
by daniel vainsencher 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

Comments most welcome. "Change Set: SubjectFiltering Date: 1 July 2000 Author: Daniel Vainsencher cmd-s in the toc list turns on Subj. F. Entering an empty filter turns it off. Subject filter made tolerant of extra spaces. In short, it's now easier to read whole threads."!

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RE: [Q] Using FFI to call standard Windows dialogs
by Raab, Andreas 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

> On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 10:45:47AM +0200, Stefan Matthias Aust wrote: > > > > As Squeak even support strange platform dependent > information like the itsy > > battery power, I'd like to see a way to get the hInstance > and hWnd values > > of the Squeak VM which are required for a lot of API calls. > > > > This stuff does not belong in the base system. Yes and no. It would be trivial to hide it inside the VM so that the image doesn't have to contain any extra code but it could be as simple as a <primitive:'win32GetWindow'> which you could insert anywhere in your code if you need it. - Andreas

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[BUG] Scamper bugs looking for a fix
by Ted K. 01 Jul '00

01 Jul '00

Folks, I applaud the overhaul of Scamper that is in progress. Here are a few bugs that are probably independent of the current effort. Anyone have an idea about them? 1) The page http://www.freetranslation.com/ displays fine and the button works. However, if you choose a different language from the popup menu button, several new buttons and fields are added to the page, and the old ones are not deleted. The more times you choose, the more buttons pile up below it. 2) The page http://www.spellcheckit.com has a form with inputs. There appears to be no way to launch this form in Scamper. Yes, there is one line of Javascript in the window setup, but I don't understand how a standard browser uses it. If you are an HTML expert, tell us how this page works! In both of the above, there are .gifs in an HTML form. It should be really easy to make those show on the screen. --Ted. Ted Kaehler, Walt Disney Imagineering, R&D (home) 3415 Cork Oak Way, Palo Alto, CA 94303. voice (650) 424-1070 http://www.webPage.com/~kaehler2/ See exactly what your web browser reveals about your identity http://www.junkbusters.com/cgi-bin/privacy

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