Squeak-dev October 1998

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107 participants
209 discussions

Re: Thoughts for development from a lurker
by Mark Wai 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

At 10:40 PM 10/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >Lack of documentation is (IMHO) more of a problem I remember somewhere (in one of those earlier SqueakIntro Window?) someone has said that one of the goals in Squeak is to make it a self described object thru hypertext. In my opinion, after spending some time working in Squeak, even judging based on the current state of Squeak, it is already very readable and quite easy to follow. I particular like little tools like the question mark for class documentation (which majority of the classes has put comments in this pane); the consistent usage of category (although I think some of the new classes in 2.2 has diverted a little bit) for easy navigation and method location (e.g. public access, instance creation etc.); the 'explain' menu option etc etc. But to me, the biggest documentation in Squeak is its complete openness of its class sources, its VM, its system (e.g. Compiler, Encoder) etc. These are something that I dearly miss in IBM Smalltalk. Of course you have to have certain knowledge in Smalltalk in order to know how to poke around the system. So for beginner, there are supplementary on-line document and tutorials available in Squeak central web site in UIUC. These tutorials can be improved, I agreed. As a side note, I would have to say that Squeak is not only good for learning Smalltalk/OO but a good live document for computer science in general. I think Squeak would be an ideal environment to teach, demo, explore and even change/extend for any computer science class ranging from graphics, compiler, electronic music, internet programming, networking, .... and you name it.. and I won't be surprise that one day when I open my Squeak image, I don't ever need to open up any applications (e.g. Word, netscape, Eudora) since I can do all these from within Squeak. In short, I would very much like to see the future improvement of Squeak documentation focus on within rather than external. -- Mark Wai Wator Innovision mailto: mwai(a)ibm.net or:[ mwai(a)frontiersa.com] __

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Re: Thoughts for development from a lurker
by "Gran" Hultgren 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Hi everybody! Lots of opinions here, fun! ---Dwight Hughes <dwighth(a)ipa.net> wrote: > To me, Squeak's UI and how it appears at present is a nonissue. Squeak's > color BitBlt display primitives can display just about anything one can > dream up. Why would you want to just emulate another GUI, or worse, tie > yourself to an external (functionally opaque) UI API, however nice it > might be? Squeak's potential to become whatever one can imagine (on > almost any platform) is too important to cripple this way. Yes, definitely agree. It is what has made Squeak so successfully ported among other things. > A good foreign function interface (with perhaps some automatic header > parsing and automatic generation of Squeak interface code and classes) > would be a *great* thing to have, and it would make much of what you are > wanting possible, along with a lot more. But I do not think the primary > Squeak distribution should be saddled with any external UI, no matter > how wonderful. Agree also. It would definitely slow the evolution of Squeak down. I was thinking more in lines of an additional package which in some ingenious way could be hooked in "beneath" the Squeaky UI, and in NO WAY replace the Squeaky UI. [SNIP] > As always -- if you want it, go do it. Squeak can be made to be whatever > you want it to be. If you want more window dressing, create it. Yes, unfortunately I do not think I will have the time to dig in, too many other projects going on, but I was just trying to put my finger on stuff that I as an "outsider" consider to be the largest obstacles for me to be able to use Squeak for DOING stuff and not just playing around. Of course Squeak is a research project but it would almost certainly benefit the project if people actually USE Squeak to produce stuff too... Right? :-) > [There was an excellent post a bit back about the (largely unpleasant) > experience of converting Squeak to use native GUI widgets and windows. > If I can locate it I'll add it to this thread for a bit of perspective.] > > -- Dwight Aha. Yes, I also vaguely remember something about this. Perhaps it just is "too tricky" to put the stuff in "beneath" and the more straight forward "make a bunch of classes that do foreign function calling" way of doing it would be better. What do I know! :-) regards, Gran === Gran Hultgren | goran.hultgren(a)inspire.se | OO Consulting Inspire | Hem: +46 8 54022950 | http://www.inspire.se Karlavgen 18 | Mobil: +46 708 813936 | icq#:6136722 114 31 Stockholm | "Vi gr allt mjligt" _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Sun's HotSpot
by vuletich＠ar.ibm.com 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu, sugar(a)ccc.uba.ar cc: From: Juan Manuel Vuletich/Argentina/Contr/IBM @ IBMAR Hello All - Hola a Todos (This message is repeated below in Spanish, for SUGAR people - En Castellano despues) Sun has published the specifications for their new second generation Java virtual machine, these are some of its characteristics. Interesting Aspects -Handleless. Object references are direct pointers, just like in Squeak. - Accurate, generational, incremental copying garbage collector, with simultaneous mark and compactacion. Like the one Squeak always had. It seems they borrowed the ideas from Squeak! - Object Headers of 2 words (3 in some cases). Squeak is the only Object Environment where 83% (tipically) of the objects have a header with JUST ONE WORD. - Reflective Data represented as Objects. Classes are internally represented as objects. Being Smalltalk-like more than ever, this new VM could allow us to generate Java bytecodes from a Smalltalk environment. Modifying Squeak object headers (from 1, 2 or 3 words) to use only 2 or 3 words, and surelly several other modifications , it should be possible to run the Squeak environment on a Java VM. This would allow an Internet browser to run Squeak without any plugin. Not so interesting aspects. - Enhanced thread management. - Enhanced C interfase - JIT compiler just for havily used code fragments. - Method Inlining. Perharps, some of this is of interest to those working on optimizing Squeak interpreter. Now in Spanish... Sun publico la especificacion de la nueva maquina virtual de segunda generacion para Java en http://java.sun.com/products/hotspot/whitepaper.html, con las siguientes caracteristicas: Aspectos interesantes - Handleless. Las referencias a objetos son punteros directos, como en Squeak. - Accurate, generational, incremental copying garbage collector, con mark y compactacion simultanea. Como el que Squeak tuvo siempre. Parece que hubieran tomado la idea de Squeak! - Headers de Objetos de 2 palabras (3 en algunos casos). Squeak es el unico Ambiente de Objetos donde el 83% (tipicamente) de los objetos tiene header de SOLO 1 PALABRA. - Reflective Data represented as Objects. Las clases son (internamente) objetos. Al parecerse a una maquina virtual Smalltalk mucho mas que antes, deberia ser mas facil la generacion de bytecodes Java en un ambiente Smalltalk. Modificando los headers de objetos de Squeak (de 1, 2 o 3 palabras) para usar unicamente 2 o 3 palabras, y seguramente algunas modificaciones mas, seria posible correr el entorno Squeak sobre una maquina virtual Java. Esto permitiria correr aplicaciones Squeak en un browser de Internet sin necesidad de un plugin. Aspectos no tan interesantes - Manejo de sincronizacion de threads mejorado - Interfase a C mejorada. - Compilador JIT solo para las partes de codigo mas usadas. - Method Inlining Alguna idea quizas sea de interes a los que trabajan en optimizar el interprete de Squeak. Juan Manuel Vuletich SW Export IGS- IBM Argentina Phone Nbr : 54-1-313-0014 ext. 5207 Tie Line : 840-5207 e-mail: vuletich(a)ar.ibm.com

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Re: Sun's HotSpot
by Hans-Martin Mosner 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Markus Kohler wrote: > > Hi all, > There's now some information about Sun's new HotSpot Java Compiler at > http://java.sun.com/products/hotspot/whitepaper.html. > > The paper says they use a two word object header. That's 8 Bytes right ? > > How does this compare to Squeak ? Most objects (small instances of so-called 'compact classes') use a 4 byte header which includes flags, a hash value, size bits and a class index. Objects whose class is not in the compact class table use 8 bytes (small hdr + class pointer), and objects whose size is more than 255 bytes use 12 bytes (small hdr + class pointer + size word). I don't have exact numbers, but I would guess that on average, a Squeak object has less than 8 header bytes. Hans-Martin

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Re: Thoughts for development from a lurker
by Kevin Fisher 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Mark Wai <mwai(a)ibm.net> wrote: > As a side note, I would have to say that Squeak is not only good for > learning Smalltalk/OO but a good live document for computer science in > general. I think Squeak would be an ideal environment to teach, demo, > explore and even change/extend for any computer science class ranging > from > graphics, compiler, electronic music, internet programming, networking, > .... > and you name it.. and I won't be surprise that one day when I open my > Squeak > image, I don't ever need to open up any applications (e.g. Word, > netscape, > Eudora) since I can do all these from within Squeak. Hear hear! That's exactly my feeling...I would LOVE to be able to totally work within the Smalltalk/Squeak environment. I already have plans to add some of the functionality I would need (a text editor, something equivalent to Xterm, a more general file manager etc). I've already created a custom X11 startup that forgoes any window management and jumps directly into full-screen Squeak...It's more of a pre-emptive move, but I expect soon I WILL be able to do everything I need to from within Squeak. Plus, it gives me a warm feeling to turn my X-terminal on and watch it go directly into Squeak. :) On the subject of the 'look' of Squeak...I've been playing around with other X11 environments (KDE and Enlightenment). The big 'thing' that is coming out of these projects is total customization...not just a set of background images and colour combinations, but the ability to craft the shape, style and bitmap of things like window borders. Enlightenment has gone even further in ways I won't get into here...but the end result is a mechanism is starting to form in certain groups for creating a custom look to an interface. I believe Enlightenment is being created WITH a customization program, and one is in the works for KDE. Perhaps it is also time to begin work on a set of classes designed specifically for the customization of the Squeak/Morphic UI? There are a lot of arguments that claim having a single, unified UI should be a paramount goal...after almost a decade of Windoze I have to disagree with that. The ability to custom-tailor an interface to your own liking is a very powerful thing, and I think Squeak is ideally suited for something like this. Maybe it is a superficial thing, but I believe that everybody has their own concept of what they are comfortable using...I prefer the ability to customize everything, from scrollbar bitmaps to iconify buttons. :) Another thing: although Enlightenment is doing things with X11 that probably have never been done before, it is _only_ for X11....Squeak could bring this type of philosophy to a number of platforms. (References: http://www.enlightenment.org, http://www.kde.org/ ) > > In short, I would very much like to see the future improvement of Squeak > documentation focus on within rather than external. > -- > Mark Wai > Wator Innovision > mailto: mwai(a)ibm.net or:[ mwai(a)frontiersa.com] > __

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Sun's HotSpot
by Patrick Logan 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

There's now some information about Sun's new HotSpot Java Compiler at http://java.sun.com/products/hotspot/whitepaper.html. How does this compare to Squeak ? Another interesting comparison with Squeak from that paper: "Classes, methods, and other internal reflective data are represented directly as objects on the heap (although those objects may not be directly accessible to Java programs). This not only simplifies the memory model, but allows classes to be collected by the same garbage collector used for other Java language objects." So it is all there, you just cannot get to it in Java! Maybe they'd SqueaZ a Smalltalk in alongside Java so programmers can actually use the stuff! -- Patrick Logan mailto:patrickl@gemstone.com Voice 503-533-3365 Fax 503-629-8556 Gemstone Systems, Inc http://www.gemstone.com

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Text-to-HTML?
by Stephen Travis Pope 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Hello all, I'd like to store a Smalltalk text object out to a file as HTML. Is there something in the nice network support classes that can translate text emphasis changes in the runs of a Squeak text object into HTML <FONT...> strings? I looked around there but came up empty. ....any reply appreciated... stp -- _ Stephen Travis Pope _ Center for Research in Electronic Art Technology (CREATE) _ Dept. of Music, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB) _ stp(a)create.ucsb.edu, http://www.create.ucsb.edu/~stp/

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Re: 2.2 for unix...
by Ian Piumarta 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Andreas, > I've put two SGI version (5.3 and 6.4) into the incoming folder. I've put these on alix in ".../unix/2.2/bin". Thanks! > could you add the following entries to the GNUmakefile.conf file?! No problem. The version on alix now includes your mods. Regards, Ian

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Re: Thoughts for development from a lurker
by Leandro Caniglia 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Mark Wai wrote: >I think Squeak would be an ideal environment to teach, demo, >explore and even change/extend for any computer science class ranging from >graphics, compiler, electronic music, internet programming, networking, ..... ...., mathematics, ... Saludos, Leandro

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Re: Thoughts for development from a lurker
by "Gran" Hultgren 08 Oct '98

08 Oct '98

Hi! ---Tim Rowledge <rowledge(a)interval.com> wrote: > On Wed 07 Oct, Gran wrote: > > > A sidenote: when trying to find this out I looked around the doc-swiki > > and even tried searching for "headless" in Squeak, but found nothing. > > Is there a place where I should have looked? > > Somewhere the command line options of the VM should be described and > > perhaps some notes about using Squeak as a scriptengine - yes, I know > > - I will write a page about it myself under the doc-swiki instead of > > whining! :-) > The getAttribute stuff is already documented at > http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak.314 > Feel free to add more to it. Oops. Weird that I did not find this the first time around. Thanks! regards, Gran === Gran Hultgren | goran.hultgren(a)inspire.se | OO Consulting Inspire | Hem: +46 8 54022950 | http://www.inspire.se Karlavgen 18 | Mobil: +46 708 813936 | icq#:6136722 114 31 Stockholm | "Vi gr allt mjligt" _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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