I finally found the responses to my email that never arrived in my inbox yet by looking in the Archive. Thanks.
Apparently my question needs to be restated in better jargon. So here goes: A beginner might want to start Squeak on a Linux machine. The Beginner's heading has no information for a beginner using Linux. Yet the claim is Squeak works on both Windows and Linux. So how does a beginner do it?
Casey says take a flying leap and eventually you'll get it. Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
Where are these easy to follow instructions for beginners?
Kirk W. Fraser w http://freetom.info/TrueChurchww.JesusGospelChurch.com - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America
The squeak mailing list is happy to help you with problems that have to do with squeak. This assumes you know the basics of how to install/use a program on your computer. While there are basic instructions for Windows and MacOS, there aren't for Linux for a few reasons: both Windows and Mac are very mainstream OS's, and so they have very unified ways of installing things. Also, there is really only 1 or 2 ways to install something on one of those systems. This is not the case with Linux. The Linux way of doing things focuses on the super old school UNIX mentality that the person using the system knows what they're doing better than any program or developer can guess, and so the power, and responsibility, is in your hands.
"...or you can just give them the source code, and have them figure it out. Linux users aren't retarded." - a friend of mine giving another friend advice on releasing some software.
I mention this because, if you use Linux, it's the user's responsibility to know (or figure out) how to get a piece of software working. Whether you need too look up something using the man pages, or ask a question on your distribution's forums, "How do I get <insert_program_name_here> to run?" isn't really a question for the squeak community if you're on a Linux machine.
Pardon my ranting, I'm a little drunk and bored, and saw this message on my phone, thinking "What the hell. *shrug*"
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted all-in-one folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that Google could help with. On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" overcomer.man@gmail.com wrote:
I finally found the responses to my email that never arrived in my inbox yet by looking in the Archive. Thanks.
Apparently my question needs to be restated in better jargon. So here goes: A beginner might want to start Squeak on a Linux machine. The Beginner's heading has no information for a beginner using Linux. Yet the claim is Squeak works on both Windows and Linux. So how does a beginner do it?
Casey says take a flying leap and eventually you'll get it. Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
Where are these easy to follow instructions for beginners?
Kirk W. Fraser w http://freetom.info/TrueChurchww.JesusGospelChurch.com - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted all-in-one folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that Google could help with.
Double-clicking doesn't work in my Fedora 19 Linux. Must do this instead:
1) Find the icon that looks like a terminal; open it to type a command on the "command line" 2) Go to the Squeak-All-In-One folder using the cd (change directory) command 2) Type "./squeak.sh &" (omit the quotes) and the enter key
Michael
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 3:21 AM, Tim Retz human.shield.117@gmail.com wrote:
The squeak mailing list is happy to help you with problems that have to do with squeak. This assumes you know the basics of how to install/use a program on your computer. While there are basic instructions for Windows and MacOS, there aren't for Linux for a few reasons: both Windows and Mac are very mainstream OS's, and so they have very unified ways of installing things. Also, there is really only 1 or 2 ways to install something on one of those systems. This is not the case with Linux. The Linux way of doing things focuses on the super old school UNIX mentality that the person using the system knows what they're doing better than any program or developer can guess, and so the power, and responsibility, is in your hands.
"...or you can just give them the source code, and have them figure it out. Linux users aren't retarded." - a friend of mine giving another friend advice on releasing some software.
I mention this because, if you use Linux, it's the user's responsibility to know (or figure out) how to get a piece of software working. Whether you need too look up something using the man pages, or ask a question on your distribution's forums, "How do I get <insert_program_name_here> to run?" isn't really a question for the squeak community if you're on a Linux machine.
Pardon my ranting, I'm a little drunk and bored, and saw this message on my phone, thinking "What the hell. *shrug*"
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted all-in-one folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that Google could help with. On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" overcomer.man@gmail.com wrote:
I finally found the responses to my email that never arrived in my inbox yet by looking in the Archive. Thanks.
Apparently my question needs to be restated in better jargon. So here goes: A beginner might want to start Squeak on a Linux machine. The Beginner's heading has no information for a beginner using Linux. Yet the claim is Squeak works on both Windows and Linux. So how does a beginner do it?
Casey says take a flying leap and eventually you'll get it. Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
Where are these easy to follow instructions for beginners?
Kirk W. Fraser w http://freetom.info/TrueChurchww.JesusGospelChurch.com - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Michael Rice limitcase@gmail.com wrote:
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted all-in-one folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that Google could help with.
Double-clicking doesn't work in my Fedora 19 Linux. Must do this instead:
- Find the icon that looks like a terminal; open it to type a command on
the "command line" 2) Go to the Squeak-All-In-One folder using the cd (change directory) command 2) Type "./squeak.sh &" (omit the quotes) and the enter key
If you can do that shouldn't Fedora 19 Linux let the user double-click on a shell script in its File-Manager to execute it? It seems Ubuntu does..
Michael
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 3:21 AM, Tim Retz human.shield.117@gmail.com wrote:
The squeak mailing list is happy to help you with problems that have to do with squeak. This assumes you know the basics of how to install/use a program on your computer. While there are basic instructions for Windows and MacOS, there aren't for Linux for a few reasons: both Windows and Mac are very mainstream OS's, and so they have very unified ways of installing things. Also, there is really only 1 or 2 ways to install something on one of those systems. This is not the case with Linux. The Linux way of doing things focuses on the super old school UNIX mentality that the person using the system knows what they're doing better than any program or developer can guess, and so the power, and responsibility, is in your hands.
"...or you can just give them the source code, and have them figure it out. Linux users aren't retarded." - a friend of mine giving another friend advice on releasing some software.
I mention this because, if you use Linux, it's the user's responsibility to know (or figure out) how to get a piece of software working. Whether you need too look up something using the man pages, or ask a question on your distribution's forums, "How do I get <insert_program_name_here> to run?" isn't really a question for the squeak community if you're on a Linux machine.
Pardon my ranting, I'm a little drunk and bored, and saw this message on my phone, thinking "What the hell. *shrug*"
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted all-in-one folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that Google could help with.
On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" overcomer.man@gmail.com wrote:
I finally found the responses to my email that never arrived in my inbox yet by looking in the Archive. Thanks.
Apparently my question needs to be restated in better jargon. So here goes: A beginner might want to start Squeak on a Linux machine. The Beginner's heading has no information for a beginner using Linux. Yet the claim is Squeak works on both Windows and Linux. So how does a beginner do it?
Casey says take a flying leap and eventually you'll get it. Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
Where are these easy to follow instructions for beginners?
Kirk W. Fraser www.JesusGospelChurch.com - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Michael Rice limitcase@gmail.com wrote:
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted
all-in-one
folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that
could help with.
Double-clicking doesn't work in my Fedora 19 Linux. Must do this instead:
- Find the icon that looks like a terminal; open it to type a command on
the "command line" 2) Go to the Squeak-All-In-One folder using the cd (change directory) command 2) Type "./squeak.sh &" (omit the quotes) and the enter key
If you can do that shouldn't Fedora 19 Linux let the user double-click on a shell script in its File-Manager to execute it? It seems Ubuntu does..
I've been using Fedora since a friend sent me a copy of Fedora Core 2. I've tried many other Linux distros but none, so far, came as close to meeting my needs. So I can live without the double-clicking. If you can't, you're free to choose another Linux, there are hundreds to choose from.
Michael
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Chris Muller asqueaker@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Michael Rice limitcase@gmail.com wrote:
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted
all-in-one
folder should get everything running, or give you error messages that
could help with.
Double-clicking doesn't work in my Fedora 19 Linux. Must do this instead:
- Find the icon that looks like a terminal; open it to type a command on
the "command line" 2) Go to the Squeak-All-In-One folder using the cd (change directory) command 2) Type "./squeak.sh &" (omit the quotes) and the enter key
If you can do that shouldn't Fedora 19 Linux let the user double-click on a shell script in its File-Manager to execute it? It seems Ubuntu does..
Michael
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 3:21 AM, Tim Retz human.shield.117@gmail.com wrote:
The squeak mailing list is happy to help you with problems that have to
do
with squeak. This assumes you know the basics of how to install/use a program on your computer. While there are basic instructions for
Windows and
MacOS, there aren't for Linux for a few reasons: both Windows and Mac
are
very mainstream OS's, and so they have very unified ways of installing things. Also, there is really only 1 or 2 ways to install something on
one
of those systems. This is not the case with Linux. The Linux way of
doing
things focuses on the super old school UNIX mentality that the person
using
the system knows what they're doing better than any program or
developer can
guess, and so the power, and responsibility, is in your hands.
"...or you can just give them the source code, and have them figure it out. Linux users aren't retarded." - a friend of mine giving another
friend
advice on releasing some software.
I mention this because, if you use Linux, it's the user's responsibility to know (or figure out) how to get a piece of software working. Whether
you
need too look up something using the man pages, or ask a question on
your
distribution's forums, "How do I get <insert_program_name_here> to run?" isn't really a question for the squeak community if you're on a Linux machine.
Pardon my ranting, I'm a little drunk and bored, and saw this message on my phone, thinking "What the hell. *shrug*"
That being said, double-clicking the "squeak.sh" in the extracted all-in-one folder should get everything running, or give you error
messages
that Google could help with.
On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" overcomer.man@gmail.com
wrote:
I finally found the responses to my email that never arrived in my
inbox
yet by looking in the Archive. Thanks.
Apparently my question needs to be restated in better jargon. So here goes: A beginner might want to start Squeak on a Linux machine. The
Beginner's
heading has no information for a beginner using Linux. Yet the claim is Squeak works on both Windows and Linux. So how does a beginner do it?
Casey says take a flying leap and eventually you'll get it. Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
Where are these easy to follow instructions for beginners?
Kirk W. Fraser www.JesusGospelChurch.com - Replace the fraud churches with the true church. http://freetom.info - Example of False Justice common in America
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On 25.01.2015, at 09:21, Tim Retz human.shield.117@gmail.com wrote:
if you use Linux, it's the user's responsibility to know (or figure out) how to get a piece of software working.
If we claim that we support Linux, then we should help any user trying to get it to run.
Also, Squeak *is* different from most other software. Not necessarily harder to run, but different enough to warrant some hand-holding for newbies.
On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" <overcomer.man@gmail.com mailto:overcomer.man@gmail.com> wrote: Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
I actually said that there should be "easy to follow instructions" and was hoping for someone to provide them.
You’re very right that we need these.
- Bert -
Am 25.01.2015 um 23:44 schrieb Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 25.01.2015, at 09:21, Tim Retz <human.shield.117@gmail.com mailto:human.shield.117@gmail.com> wrote:
if you use Linux, it's the user's responsibility to know (or figure out) how to get a piece of software working.
If we claim that we support Linux, then we should help any user trying to get it to run.
You cannot claim to support Linux because Linux is not an operating system but only an operating system kernel. What you can support is Linux distributions. Every Linux distribution is free to combine the Linux kernel with a multitude of libraries and applications to form an operating system. In order to support a Linux distribution you need to compile the VM against the library versions that the distribution uses. With a little luck later releases are backwards compatible and can run a VM that is built against an older version. The other direction is possible only with a lot of luck. The good thing about the Squeak VM is that it depends only on very few libraries so the possibility is high that none of the version change from (distribution) version to the next. You need a lot more luck if you try to run a Squeak VM on a Linux distribution A that is built on Linux distribution B. The problems that are reported from time to time are just the tip of the iceberg. Probably because only a few Linux users try to run Squeak. Real support for Linux (distributions) would be a lot of work: build and test the VM for a multitude of Linux distributions (there are hundreds if not thousands of them) and for many versions of each. Every variation of involved library in any involved (incompatible) version.
Andreas
Also, Squeak *is* different from most other software. Not necessarily harder to run, but different enough to warrant some hand-holding for newbies.
On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" <overcomer.man@gmail.com mailto:overcomer.man@gmail.com> wrote: Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
I actually said that there should be "easy to follow instructions" and was hoping for someone to provide them.
You’re very right that we need these.
- Bert -
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Sun, 2015-01-25 at 23:44 +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" overcomer.man@gmail.com wrote: Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
I actually said that there should be "easy to follow instructions" and was hoping for someone to provide them.
One likely issue is that the packaging on Linux still seems to be a bit inadequate which may cause problems for new users: one click still appears to only include a 32-bit build on a platform that has been 64-bit for many (most?) of its users for quite a while. New / non-technical users who don't know what that means might be turned off by that initial experience. Why doesn't one click include both 32- and 64-bit VMs builds for 32-bit images rather than presenting a 'cross your fingers' message (which assumes that they fire it up from a terminal window to even see it) when launching?
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Phil (list) pbpublist@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, 2015-01-25 at 23:44 +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Jan 24, 2015 11:00 PM, "Kirk Fraser" overcomer.man@gmail.com wrote: Bert says there are easy to follow instructions to do it.
I actually said that there should be "easy to follow instructions" and was hoping for someone to provide them.
One likely issue is that the packaging on Linux still seems to be a bit inadequate which may cause problems for new users: one click still appears to only include a 32-bit build on a platform that has been 64-bit for many (most?) of its users for quite a while. New / non-technical users who don't know what that means might be turned off by that initial experience. Why doesn't one click include both 32- and 64-bit VMs builds for 32-bit images rather than presenting a 'cross your fingers' message (which assumes that they fire it up from a terminal window to even see it) when launching?
Simply because we don't have a 64-bit ready general consumption yet. We want to do that. It's being worked on.
Dear Squeakers, As a long term Linux user let me add a couple of remarks to the discussion.
"The Linux way of doing things focuses on the super old school UNIX mentality that the person using the system knows what they're doing better than any program or developer can guess, and so the power, and responsibility, is in your hands."
This do not apply to e.g. Ubuntu.
"How do I get <insert_program_name_here> to run?" isn't really a question for the squeak community if you're on a Linux machine."
IMHO there are two separate questions to address: 1. "How do I get Squeak to run on Linux?" 2. "How do I get Squeak to run on <put here any Linux distro>?" The Squeak community should address only the first question and it should do it with the One-Click Image. If there are any Linux users around, who want to maintain packages in some distros, let them do it, and help them with that. Then you can link to their work, when the question concerning a particular distro arrives. Some links for potential maintainers: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/new-maintainer.html https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
"You cannot claim to support Linux because Linux is not an operating system but only an operating system kernel."
IMHO it is false, but a part of it is true :-P Yes, Linux is only an operating system kernel, but does it mean you cannot claim to support the kernel? I think you can. Additionally you can claim to support Linux with X Window System. And it is more or less what Squeak does in the One-Click image afaiu.
"In order to support a Linux distribution you need to compile the VM against the library versions that the distribution uses."
Well, it is desirable, but not strictly necessary.
"Real support for Linux (distributions) would be a lot of work: build and test the VM for a multitude of Linux distributions (there are hundreds if not thousands of them) and for many versions of each. Every variation of involved library in any involved (incompatible) version."
And it is not the task of Squeak developers to do that. It is the task of each distribution's package maintainers (which of course might be the same people, but in different roles). Squeak developers are something called "upstream" :-P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstream_%28software_development%29
On Wed, 2015-01-28 at 09:56 +0100, Mateusz Grotek wrote:
Dear Squeakers, As a long term Linux user let me add a couple of remarks to the discussion.
"The Linux way of doing things focuses on the super old school UNIX mentality that the person using the system knows what they're doing better than any program or developer can guess, and so the power, and responsibility, is in your hands."
This do not apply to e.g. Ubuntu.
The parent doesn't apply to any of the major distros targeting end users AFAICT (Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc.) Sure for things like Arch or Slackware you're on your own, but if you're on one of those you already knew that.
"How do I get <insert_program_name_here> to run?" isn't really a question for the squeak community if you're on a Linux machine."
IMHO there are two separate questions to address:
- "How do I get Squeak to run on Linux?"
- "How do I get Squeak to run on <put here any Linux distro>?"
The Squeak community should address only the first question and it should do it with the One-Click Image. If there are any Linux users around, who want to maintain packages in some distros, let them do it, and help them with that. Then you can link to their work, when the question concerning a particular distro arrives. Some links for potential maintainers: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/new-maintainer.html https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
Agreed. Addressing 1 should address 2 in the general case. Again, if you're off in the wilderness you're on your own, but you already knew that.
However, as a Debian user myself, I'd actually prefer it if most of the more substantial user facing programs such as Squeak didn't waste time packaging for Debian: these packages are so hopelessly out of date that they create more problems than they solve. If the distro version is more than a couple of months behind the current release, it would seem to be a better and more supportable solution to point people to the one click. Should they grow beyond that, presumably they'll also learn about alternate downloads and building from source down the line.
"In order to support a Linux distribution you need to compile the VM against the library versions that the distribution uses."
Well, it is desirable, but not strictly necessary.
I would say that is *only* desirable for packages that are maintained in distro repositories. For separately downloadable Linux packages (i.e. things like one click), static linking results in them behaving largely like a Windows or OS X app: it just works works without a bunch of unsatisfiable .so issues.
beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Andreas Wacknitz -
Bert Freudenberg -
Chris Muller -
Kirk Fraser -
Mateusz Grotek -
Michael Rice -
Phil (list) -
Tim Retz